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Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

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Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#121

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

My very first thought was: that cable gets snipped in wartime. Not a big deal, if your grid can handle the loss, but this certainly can’t be the gameplan for the bulk of your power.

Singapore has no strategic depth anyway, becoming dependent on importing power isn't some extra vunerable vector vs building domestic generation that likely can't be protected long term. Current is Singapore military vs region is like PRC:TW in the 90s... back then TW with US equipment was one of the more potent forces in the region and could stomp far larger/poorer countries with inferior hardware. But advanced equipment can only scale so far vs quantity, and as rest of ASEAN gets wealthier they're going to build out more modern capabilties, at scales that rich but small Singapore won't have the resources to defend against. If anything integration with AU, with military infra (and future US B21s) is probably more secure / geopolitical hedge against other's meddling.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#122
post #3

How much copper would you need for a 4,300km 2GW subsea cable?

~65,000 tons of copper, which would cost about $515 million dollars or maybe a billion after being turned into wires. These numbers are from ChatGPT which is good at figuring out amounts needed but useless at figuring out real industrial-scale prices.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#123
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly such a project is currently being explored, while a UK-Morocco line is continuing development: https://www.current-news.co.uk/uk-us-transatlantic-interconn... Weirdly enough the latter is projected to cost less than the now infamous Hinkley Point C nuclear power plant.

Given how well the Australian project is going (it's a long running project that's already late before even starting) I'm convinced that this project will have the same woes which comes from the mere fact of being massive long-term infrastructure projects and have nothing to do with nuclear being special. By the way, do you know what cost the most money on the HPC project? Loan interests, by a very large margin. Beca…

> By the way, do you know what cost the most money on the HPC project? Loan interests, by a very large margin. Because of the risk of project failure given the lack of government guarantees, they had to borrow at a baffling 9% interest rate in a world if zero interest rate. This is the insanity that drove the cost to the sky, not the engineering side of things.

This is the first time I've heard of this, so I did a little digging.

> Lazard assumes investors want a return of 12% and bond holders will accept an interest payment of 8%. These are kept standard across all types of generation as the intention is not to assess the risk of the project but instead the competitiveness of the technology.

> If Hinkley was to pay these commercial rates, the project construction with interest would balloon out to close to $70b. But they didn’t and digging into EDF’s financial statements shows interest costs related to construction was only 1% of capitalised costs in 2017 and 4% in 2021.

https://illuminem.com/illuminemvoices/nuclear-economics-less...

The Finacial Times article from 2023 puts the cost increase elsewhere:

> The increase, caused by surges in material prices several billion above the most recent estimates, is nearly 80 per cent more than the cost of £18bn in 2016, when EDF first started work on the project.

https://www.ft.com/content/ae5fb399-08ce-4045-bb70-45a6531ac...

And directly from the horse's mouth, in the EDF's status update from 2024:

> The costs of completing the project are now estimated at between £31 billion and £34 billion in 2015 values. The cost of civil engineering and the longer duration of the electromechanical phase (and its impact on other work) are the two main reasons for this cost revision. If the risk of an additional delay of 12 months mentioned above in the final scenario does materialise it would result in an estimated additional cost of around £1 billion in 2015 values.

https://www.edf.fr/en/the-edf-group/dedicated-sections/journ...

----

The only reference to the 9% figure you mentioned comes from a BBC article from 2018

> However, Dieter Helm, professor of Energy Policy at the University of Oxford, told the BBC that the government shift made sense.

> "The sheer cost of building new nuclear power stations means it makes sense for the government to help finance projects like this," he said.

> "Governments can borrow much more cheaply that private companies and that lower cost of borrowing can drastically reduce the ultimate cost. Hinkley Point C would have been roughly half the cost if the government had been borrowing the money to build it at 2%, rather than EDF's cost of capital, which was 9%."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44363366

I couldn't verify it anywhere else though. Can you point to a source from the EDF that confirms the loan interests cost the most money on the Hinkley Point C project?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#124
post #90
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While Singapore is a surprisingly martial country, if they get into a war with anyone in SEA they're running a very real risk of being destroyed. Indonesia alone has 5x their GDP and 20x their population. There isn't much difficulty choosing which city to target first when going up against Singapore either. In Singapore's situation, they can probably invest assuming that they are not in a military conflict with anyon…

> While Singapore is a surprisingly martial country, if they get into a war with anyone in SEA they're running a very real risk of being destroyed. Indonesia alone has 5x their GDP and 20x their population. Wikipedia gives an estimate of $1.47 trillion for Indonesia's GDP in 2024. The estimate for Singapore is $525.228 billion. The factor seems to be less than 3x. Where do you get 5x from? Are you going by PPP or so?…

I was looking at the PPP figures. By accident as it happens, I was looking at the first box in Wikipedia with "GDP" in it. But I think that is still fine in this context.

> You can't make those assumptions, if you don't want to be bullied. Singapore doesn't have that cable right now and we ain't in the stone age.

You aren't at war either as far as I know, and hopefully it stays that way. But if Singapore happens to be at war with someone who thinks cutting that cable is a good option then the stone age beckons. And not because of the cable.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#126
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely solar panels are affordable with typical Australian household incomes? And much more effective even in southern Tasmania at 45°S as compared to southern Finland at 60°N (where they're apparently cost-effective since they're building solar farms). If they feel their electricity provider is screwing with them, why not make their own? Probably even with batteries it would pay for itself given the ROI I'd guess pa…

Australia is quite good with residential rooftop solar. Last time I heard about payback times this was under 3 years for a 10 kW system.

Payback time is a function of =install cost/power price

We in NZ are cursed with cheap power (albeit I can sell solar power to spot market at 3x of night retail rate)

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#127
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure someone will figure out how to make a working solar sail that captures energy and beams it to earth via microwaves. Please enough of them far away from Earth and you get pretty much unlimited energy all year round.

You get the same if you place solar panels in places around the equator, without all the messiness of orbital repairs and GW death rays. I can't see this being cheaper than just some panels on the ground.

The death ray might be the feature that sells the whole thing.

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#128

Does it actually make economic sense to run a cable large enough for that kind of power from Australia to Singapore? I would have guessed there must be enough domestic customers or in Indonesia that would make more sense.

Power cables are getting cheaper and cheaper. The expensive part used to be the voltage conversion stations at the ends, but with mass production of MOSFETs for EV's these have now become far cheaper than the JFET's and other exotic silicon that used to be used. In turn, that means voltages can be higher, letting one use more of the cheaper PVC or XLPE insulating material and less expensive aluminium for the same amo…

Why higher voltages can result in cheaper insulation materials? Wouldn’t it be the opposite?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#129
post #85
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there has been an unfortunate "phase shift" since 1970 in the nuclear energy industry/ecosystem, mostly because the risk engineering principle/mandate called ALARA (as low as reasonably achievable), and of course reasonable does not mean profitable. (which makes sense, we want safe reactors not just "there was a safety budget, and we spent all of it" >>safe https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/devanney-on-the-nuclear-flo…

Nuclear is held to a much higher safety standard (eg in terms of deaths per Joule) than any other form of electricity production. And that includes photovoltaic! Nuclear is so safe--even fully factoring in the accident at Chernobyl--that people very occasionally falling off rooftops when installing solar panels is a bigger health hazard per Joule produced.

How much bigger of a health hazard is manufacturing/installing solar panels compared to nuclear? Let's say, per one terawatt-hour of produced energy, how many people die doing each?

Re: Australian government approves AAPowerLink project to export solar to Singapore

#130
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power cables are getting cheaper and cheaper. The expensive part used to be the voltage conversion stations at the ends, but with mass production of MOSFETs for EV's these have now become far cheaper than the JFET's and other exotic silicon that used to be used. In turn, that means voltages can be higher, letting one use more of the cheaper PVC or XLPE insulating material and less expensive aluminium for the same amo…

Why higher voltages can result in cheaper insulation materials? Wouldn’t it be the opposite?

Nah - the insulation material costs ~ $0.80/liter, whereas aluminium conductor costs $6.50/liter.

If you can have the conductor 1mm^2 thinner (capable of carrying less current for the same heat production) and the insulation 1mm^2 thicker (capable of handling a higher voltage) and transfer the same power, then you'd save money.

It only works up to a certain limit obviously - the relationship is non-linear and there is an optimal point.

The actual tradeoff involves a lot more modelling, because you need to consider all kinds of other factors, not just the costs of the conductor and insulator.

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