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Copying is the way design works (2020)

matthewstrom.com

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Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#121

Post by visarga »

kivle wrote: post #94
visarga wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs don't have experience though. They might not have had experience 2 years ago, but in the meantime they assisted 100s of millions of people for many billion tasks. Many of them are experiences you can't find in a book. They contain on-topic feedback and even real world outcomes to LLM ideas. Deployed LLMs create experiences, they get exposed to things outside their training distribution, they search solution sp…

This sounds like an ad. What is "assisted 100s of millions of people in many billions of tasks"? Any real world data? If it's generating new random clip art for presentations, sure. If it's making new flavor text based on generic input, sure. If my question is "what is the circumference of earth", and I run a model with a temperature of 100, will it give me a good result? Will it always give me a good result with a t…

> What is "assisted 100s of millions of people in many billions of tasks"?

Let's assume 180M users for ChatGPT, each user using the model just 5 times in a month. You got the 1B tasks. If one task uses up 1000 tokens - you have the trillion interactive tokens. It's all based on public data and guesstimation.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#122

Post by visarga »

kivle wrote: post #98
kivle wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an ad. What is "assisted 100s of millions of people in many billions of tasks"? Any real world data? If it's generating new random clip art for presentations, sure. If it's making new flavor text based on generic input, sure. If my question is "what is the circumference of earth", and I run a model with a temperature of 100, will it give me a good result? Will it always give me a good result with a t…

And to expand on myself. "Experience" means something very specific for humans. It means you have done something for a long time, and you have failed at it. And you have learned from experience. By definition, LLMs don't have any experience at all. They are trained and become a fresh "brain", and then they make the same mistakes, over and over and over, until they either get a new prompt that might correct themselves…

What I meant is

1. LLM generates an idea and

2. the user responds positively or negatively or

3. the user tries the idea and comes back to continue the iteration, communicating the outcomes.

For example the LLM generates some code and I run it, and if it fails I copy paste the error.

That is the (state, action, reward) tuple which defines an experience.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#123

Post by tptacek »

rsanek wrote: post #120
tptacek wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care; as far as I'm concerned, that argument is isomorphic to "would $1MM literal dollars be enough for what they saw, or should the number be higher". Maybe. But the right to buy shares is not really a meaningful distinction to the simple issuance of shares in this historical context. That's all I'm arguing.

in retrospect? sure. at the time? radically different. just ask your average sv startup employee if they think options and RSUs are the same

Options and RSUs are both universally acknowledged as consideration. That's all I'm arguing. Should it have been $1MM in stock, or $50MM, or $200k? Hell if I know.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#125

Post by caseyohara »

ozim wrote: post #57
burningChrome wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I was a UI/UX guy for about 5 years and worked for a company that pumped out thousands of sites a year. A bunch of their designs won awards and I saw their model and thought I could do that, it seemed easy. The hitch was that I was going to design really cool sites, with all kinds of animations, huge text, have really cool navigation menus, etc. In short, I had a very romantic idea that I would dictate some inc…

It is not only that. For example wannabe EDM DJs think they have to be creative and find tracks that no one ever heard to be edgy or whatever… most of people pay for having cookie cutter songs played so they can dance and have a good experience and they don’t want to be surprised on EDM event - well there are big names that can do whatever they want of course but that is different expectation. The same with software…

Wow, this couldn't be further from the truth. It might be true for DJs playing "main stage" style EDM (poppy mainstream music) but for most electronic subgenres – especially techno – the crowd absolutely expects the DJ to be a superb crate digger and pull out new and deep tracks they've never heard before.

No one goes to a techno club to hear rinsed tracks; they want the DJ to show them music they've never heard before. Before the digital age, people would go out to see touring DJs specifically for their collection of rare records that no one else had and you couldn't hear anywhere else. This is still true today in the more underground scenes. It's the opposite of cookie cutter.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#126

Post by __mharrison__ »

inglor_cz wrote: post #10
ppqqrr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “artists need to make a living” narrative against piracy is pure deception. Truth is that most artists want nothing more than for their messages to spread as widely as possible, as that is also the most naturally profitable path for them in the long term. It’s only when managerial types get involved the need to turn a quick buck by denying the natural flow of information becomes a primary concern. So pirate away,…

I self-publish my books. The audience is decent, I publish shortened audiobook versions for free, but frankly, I like the fact that the paper books themselves are copyrighted and no one can print them extremely cheaply and flood the market with them at my expense. It would have been natural, but also depressing.

I also self publish books.

Most of the audience is decent. But there are some bad actors out there.

And lots of times the biggest book marketplace appears to (intentionally) close their eyes to this problem.

Piracy of my books from the dark web is one thing. Amazon pushing it is another.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#127

Post by __mharrison__ »

surfingdino wrote: post #13
inglor_cz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I self-publish my books. The audience is decent, I publish shortened audiobook versions for free, but frankly, I like the fact that the paper books themselves are copyrighted and no one can print them extremely cheaply and flood the market with them at my expense. It would have been natural, but also depressing.

I stopped self-publishing my books, because as soon as I offered PDFs to those who purchased my paper books the sales of printed copies tanked. Then nobody wanted to pay for PDFs and Amazon screwed my KDP sales (banned my book). The readers felt entitled to free copies and free consultation on the subject of the book. It's really depressing how entitled people feel to other people's creative output or knowledge.

Did you just stop publishing altogether?

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#128

Post by raincole »

karaterobot wrote: post #18

> As a designer, I feel the need to be original. If you’re a designer, or even if you’re just interested in design, you probably feel the need to be original, too. I've been a professional designer since 2006, and I got over that thinking pretty quickly. A designer trying to be strikingly original is rarely acting in service of the design. If you want to be strikingly original, you probably want to be an artist inste…

> If you want to be strikingly original, you probably want to be an artist instead of a designer.

Copying is the way art works as well (at least for those who are not doing super-edgy-fine-art).

Typical journey of a digital painter:

1. Refuse to copy. Refuse to even look at references.

2. Hoard references. Over reference.

3. Copy in the right way.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#129

Post by ranger_danger »

js2 wrote: post #22

For a visual form of the same argument, but more about music and film, see everything is a remix: https://www.everythingisaremix.info/ It's been submitted to HN many times but has never spawned any discussion: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=everything+is+a+remix

> It's been submitted to HN many times but has never spawned any discussion:

It could be because, at least for me personally, I found the first 15 minutes to be a little too boring. Perhaps people just gave up before then.

Re: Copying is the way design works (2020)

#130

Post by atoav »

karaterobot wrote: post #18

> As a designer, I feel the need to be original. If you’re a designer, or even if you’re just interested in design, you probably feel the need to be original, too. I've been a professional designer since 2006, and I got over that thinking pretty quickly. A designer trying to be strikingly original is rarely acting in service of the design. If you want to be strikingly original, you probably want to be an artist inste…

As a former professional designer (and current improvisational musician( myself I would even come at it from the other direction: There is no true originality to begin with. Everything you do borrows from somewhere else, except maybe the things you do by accident.

But there is still a difference between a designer who blatantly slaps an existing aesthetic onto your project and a designer who tries to come up with a suitable look from first principles.

Design isn't styling, it is the visual organization of information with styling. So unless your information is the same the outcome will differ anyways.

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