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Batteries: How cheap can they get?

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Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#121

Post by rootusrootus »

DaoVeles wrote: post #103
worstspotgain wrote: post #38

As a layperson, the first thing the title made me think of is "How safe can they get?" Let RESCI be the Risk of Explosion/Surge/Combustion/Inhalation. Here are some measures that are interesting to me that I can't really approximate when evaluating products: - Incremental RESCI when buying from the cheapest 25% of vendors - Incremental RESCI when drawing from the product population that shouldn't have passed QA - Inc…

With a lot of new chemistry the risk of fire is greatly reduced. It seems to be an issue mostly with lithium based systems. Things like Iron or sodium based are much safer, energy density is also lower because of this but it is a reasonable trade off. Also tend to have much greater life time charge cycles. Potential to go tens of thousands of cycles rather than just a thousand or so.

> an issue mostly with lithium based systems. Things like Iron or sodium based are much safer

The iron battery you are thinking of is a lithium battery. It is not the lithium that is a fire risk; lithium ion batteries do not contain metallic lithium. In an LFP battery the phosphate-oxide bond is much more stable and not subject to thermal runaway compared with e.g. cobalt-oxide.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#122

Post by ozim »

denkmoon wrote: post #120
blacksmith_tb wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds great, but are there actual businesses who will come to your home and do an install, or do you need to to become a mad-scientist electrician and DIY? I got quotes on getting an LG system a few years ago and it was 4X these prices (also for me a problem is that my 'ancient' panels from 2013 use a single inverter instead of microinverters, so if I touch the system I have to replace it all). I keep hoping there w…

Some people cold knocked on my dad's door and 3 weeks later he's got a wall of batteries in the garage. Rural Australia. So yeah, there are businesses that'll do it.

In place where I live you do that and they will rip you off good time.

Better to DIY or at least do really good market research first.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#123

Post by rootusrootus »

silverquiet wrote: post #33
ss64 wrote: post #4

The cost of 50AH Li-Ion batteries is getting close to the point where they may start to compete with Lead acid for gas powered cars.

I looked at it and couldn’t find any that offered enough cranking amps. I’m not sure how easy it would be to design a lifepo4 battery for the application.

There are some out there. The one that comes to mind is Dakota Lithium. They have a few options with 1000 CCA.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#124

Post by rootusrootus »

martythemaniak wrote: post #5

Current prices are kinda nutty and are largely determined by the size of your buy. Retail prices for home batteries (a few kWhs) are roughly $1000/kWh. A Model 3 gets you about $700/kWh (with two free motors and an ipad). A Tesla megapack is $290/kWh, but you have to spend $1000000 to get that price. Tesla probably gets cells from the factory at round $80-$90/kWh. Long-term it seems pretty reasonable that retail pric…

> Retail prices for home batteries (a few kWhs) are roughly $1000/kWh.

Do you mean the installed price? Including inverters and such? $1000/kWh is more than 4x what you can buy LFP batteries for off Amazon.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#125

Post by pfdietz »

torginus wrote: post #59

Ladies and gents this is what standard-issue Silicon Valley style grift looks like (following in the footsteps of the great Kurzweil). Ignore basic physics, massage data so you can more credibly fit an exponential curve on it, and extrapolate a fantastic future for it. All this to underpin the grand illusion of capitalism that exponential YoY growth is sustainable to justify insane VC valuations. Which is even more p…

Which basic physics did he ignore?

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#126

Post by vitaflo »

jvanderbot wrote: post #17

I would love a 5-20kwh battery backup in my home, I even have a place for it. But when I called my local solar/battery installer they said that it was illegal to install grid-charged battery backups in home. I live in Minnesota. They even told me the power from a hypothetical solar rig is sold to the grid utility, not stored, and they give a discount on future winter rates as payment. This seems like a lousy deal.

Might want to check with a diff installer. Lots of solar installers in MN advertise battery backups. In fact a new law signed recently (and goes into effect in the next couple months) adds tax incentives for battery backups in homes.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#127

Post by bufferoverflow »

GaggiX wrote: post #75
oezi wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 8 to 10 years panels will be even cheaper. Probably half of today. The price trajectory is still falling.

>Probably half of today. A 410W solar panel at 29€? I really doubt that honestly. Cheaper than plywood.

Thin-film solar panels will be much cheaper than that. They will be printed in huge quantities.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#128

Post by sholladay »

Lowering cost per kWh is great, but if power demand increases at about the same rate or faster, then the impact is minimal.

Cost per bit of internet plans has also gone down a lot in the past decade, but you’d be forgiven for not noticing on account of all the new JavaScript, ads, and other website bloat.

Using less exotic materials is exciting, though! Regardless of whether the cost feels different.

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#129

Post by h0l0cube »

Aurornis wrote: post #118
duffpkg wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a lot of information on this on the diysolarforum.com but if you purchase name brand cells, CATL/EVE from a good supplier these are the same ones used by all industry. They have a very good track record. I do not advocate buying from any random seller on aliexpress. There are not any mass market non-chinese batteries available for sale. Virtually all solar equipment of any fashion is chinese made.

That’s the forum I followed. The failures often came from BMS or other parts, too. There’s a lot of focus on the cells, but people are buying whole packs with a BMS.

Then that’s more the issue with the BMS rather than the cells

Re: Batteries: How cheap can they get?

#130

Post by louwrentius »

I have 4 x 230Ah LiFePo4 cells in a 12 volt setup to power my solar powered blog during the night. It also runs my computer setup at 90W for many hours using an inverter.

People should really understand how cheap these cells have become and how feasible it is to setup your own battery storage system.

I’m now on a variable (next-day / day-ahead) dynamic electricity tariff that changes by the hour. On some days there are multiple hours where I get Paid to use electricity, it’s crazy that we have such an abundance of wind and solar.

It’s such fun to play with the Tiber API + Python and using those cheap hours to charge my battery a bit, while leaving room for solar.

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