Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think we now know about a lot more externalities of this kind of logging than we did generations ago. For example, much of the hydrological basis that provide drinking water to the Seattle metro area was aggressively logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. I think extra knowledge in the space of the environment often leads to indecis…
Everything has externalities though. Don't get me wrong I'm all for a forest going unlogged, but we will replace those resources with something else. We still use lumber, if it isn't locally harvested we buy it from another part of the world, outsourcing those externalities and throwing in all the extra costs of shipping, labor overhead for the various middlemen, customs, etc. My point isn't that we're screwed and sh…
US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
121–130 of 147 posts
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you and parent comment might actually agree. The 3x trees is an indication of too much, too many small trees, too much fuel. Places that burn and recover lose their "excess" trees. The trees get more space and are healthy top to bottom. OTOH, tree farm trees are bred to have few branches and are planted very close together. Tree farms grow tree trunks, not trees. There is a line of thought, which honestly I t…
> They do argue that the tree farm is actually better because it is growing. I'm extremely skeptical of that claim. One could measure the tonnage of tree farm wood extracted per day against the estimated tonnage of the trees in a non-farm environment pretty easily I would think. Frankly, the claim, to me, seems incredibly intuitive and your skepticism sounds like stubborn environmentalist thought.
I've travelled along lots of tree farms, on foot and on bike. That is good time to really inspect them. I've also done the same in places that have had healthy burns, California style burns where nothing remains, and have also travelled to some truly majestic red wood groves in California.
A tree farm is a grove of Q-tip like trees where there is darkness underneath and thick nasty underbrush. The 'healthy' forests have trees that are healthy from top to bottom. The Q-tip trees are not healthy, they are too close together.
> One could measure the tonnage of tree farm wood extracted per day against the estimated tonnage of the trees in a non-farm environment pretty easily I would think.
I like the direction of thinking here, namely to try and quantify the effects.
Considering tree farms are left to grow for (AFAIK 40 to 60 years), the "daily harvest" rate needs normalization to account for that growth time (and that needs to be compared against what would happen had those been mature trees instead).
First perspective, plant metabolism. Why do plants use photosynthesis? Namely, to extract carbon so that they can grow. The overall rate of photosynthesis is thus related to the overall rate of carbon uptake. If we then consider the amount of green surface area per square foot (being very careful to consider that healthy trees have immense vertical depth to them) - the photosynthesizing surface area of an old tree is magnitudes more than that of a sapling and much more than a tree farm tree. The area of photosynthesizing surfaces is very important, that's all pulling carbon out of the atmosphere, it's used by the plant. Do plants grow extra leaves for those leaves to do nothing, or for that carbon to be extra?
Thus, area for photosynthesis is a proxy for plant metabolism & carbon uptake. Comparing the total green surface area of a tree farm vs a forest is drastically different. Tree farm trees do not have a depth of canopy. Young saplings have many, many fewer leaves.
So, by one measure, the total area of photosynthesis is very different. How can carbon sequestration be greater for small trees that are incapable of even pulling down the same magnitude of carbon compared to a taller tree that has magnitudes more leaves and surface area?
Thus, the first argument is one purely based on metabolism. A cat needs about 200 calories a day. An olympic athlete needs anywhere from like 4000 to 7000 calories a day. This is the comparison, the metabolism of a giant tree is just huge, compared to that of a 8 foot tall sapling that has a diameter of 3 inches. It's an olympic athlete vs a mouse.
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Second, let's consider a mathematical argument for just wood material. We need to compare the total tree growth of an old tree compared to an equivalent number of tree farm trees in the same area. So, we're just counting here total bark increase over one year (and we're ignoring roots, and leaves - which are significant). For this, a single ring on the diameter of the trunk is huge. The linear length of a ring of tree bark on a 5 foot diameter tree is much more than the linear length of a dozen 3 inch diameter trees. Then, we also need to consider the linear length of all of the branches. A tree farm tree grows short branches and drops most of them. Trees in 'natural' forests have vertical depth, the branches low on the tree are growing and healthy whereas the tree farm tree is not. Comparing the growth of branches, the old trees will be way more than that of young trees, and/or of any tree farm tree (which have been selected for those that grow few branches - makes them easier to process and cut).
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Thus, skepticism is rooted in:
- I see an immense conflict of interest to speculate that tree farms are more carbon negative than a non-tree farm forest.
- Plant metabolism allows for carbon to pulled out of the atmosphere. Plant metabolism is proxied by photosynthesizing surface area, which is magnitudes more in a non-tree farm tree. The rate at which older trees can pull down carbon is just way more.
- The total volumes (per year) storing carbon in trees is much greater for a larger tree than several small ones. That is all of the growth of the roots, the growth of the trunk and all of the branches. It's like what happens when you add half an inch diameter to a baby compared to half an inch on an adult - the half inch on an adult creates a dramatically bigger volume.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
> logged 100 years ago which impacts the hydrology of the basin in a negative way for the purpose collecting drinking water. Can you elaborate on the problems?
They are most likely referring to the Cedar River Watershed, which supplies 70% of Seattle's water. While the city spent the 20th century buying up all the land so that it is now a protected wilderness area, plenty of logging happened during that time and less than a fifth of the old-growth forest remains. You can read all about it here: https://www.seattle.gov/utilities/protecting-our-environment... Specifically, he…
> Specifically, here is the forest management plan, which goes into great detail about the current conditions, their effects on the water cycle, and the long term objectives:
This is a 130 page document. The first few pages mentioning old-growth forest are mostly discussing habitat for fauna. Is there a more specific part of the document discussing hydrological impact?
> I spent a few years in my 20s volunteering for ecological restoration projects in the watershed. We dug up old logging roads, removed invasive species (Japanese knotweed, ugh!), deconstructed landscaping left over from abandoned small towns, did erosion control along creeks in logged areas, restored riverside habitats, and planted lots of native trees and shrubs. I am not in touch with the organization anymore, but I'll always feel some pride in the work we did and a sense of connection to the place.
Very cool! My only connection to this is that my mom worked for SPU in drinking water.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Old growth plateaus from a ton/acre of carbon perspective pretty quickly, and old growth forests aren’t meaningfully sequestering much new carbon in their soil. It reaches a steady state, with excess rotting. Almost no forests do, or they’d be sitting on hundreds of feet of charcoal like matter. > New growth pulls carbon out of the atmosphere fast - and cutting it down and using it, gives room for more, fast. Once…
I've shared the sources in other threads. Here are some random ones I found with a few minutes of googling [ https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/ecological-values-of-old-... Most of these products do actually end up sequestering carbon nearly indefinitely, as unless the house or structure burns down, the product ends up in the landfill or remains on site. Unlike forest products on the forest floor, they don't naturall…
The link you did share, has this table: https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/0...
It also states [1]: "On sites like Fairy Creek, old forests are estimated to store twice as much carbon as mature forests and six or more times as much as clearcuts. Productive coastal old forests can store up to six times more carbon than old forests in drier climatic areas."
In that quote "productive" I think means mostly a mature forest (in other places it is noted that only a fraction of area is available for logging, so it's not quite clear what exactly productive means).
From the table of sequestration - it's very interesting how much carbon is sequestered into the ground compared to above ground. Old growth put a lot more into the ground, while new trees sequester almost entirely above ground. The numbers are very different too... The old growth, per same unit area, have a lot more sequestration compared to regen and immature forests.
> Be aware however, I've done the math before and even if we turn ALL potentially forestable AND farmable land into forests, it is impossible to sink all the carbon we're currently emitting into forests. Not even close, unfortunately.
A lot of land cannot be forests. I know this wasn't quite your point - but one thing I think missed by the "grow forests to chop them down and bury them" - is that when a forest is chopped down it no longer is fire resistant. A person can only do that for so long before an intense fire comes along and turns that area into a savannah. The growing trees have no chance, they all burn down - this is how forests become savannahs.
I truly appreciate your comment and the dialog here!
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Outside of cities, the main ways to make a living is using the natural resources. Logging, mining, farming etc. Laws are made by city people, who think of work as something you do sitting by a desk. They see the countryside as a nature reserve to keep beautiful for their vacation trips. So they ban most commercial use of natural resources. This is part of what makes rural communities poor and desperate societies, sur…
As a counter point, in Western NC the National Forests are major tourist destinations, and many rural towns with no other industry to speak of are able to thrive because people come from all over to enjoy them. These towns are filled with businesses catering to tourists and there are plenty of jobs doing so. Logging isn't the only way for a community to profit from a forest, conservation can do this too.
A negative angle is that they used to be able to live off the land with hard work. Then the city people banned that, and now they're reduced to serving those city people on their nice vacations.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which 'deal' specifically, could you provide a link so we can read more?
You could look up the original Bureau of Land Management charter by congress, which does in fact mandate that the BLM's charter[1] is to manage federal lands with the goals of sustained resource yield: > The Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States that goals and objectives be established by law as guidelines for public land use planning, and that management be on the basis of multiple use and sus…
I appreciate this statement, and have one question to ask:
> The deal was very explicitly that federal land was to be managed to avoid a tragedy of the commons with regards to resource extraction. Resource extraction was one of the primary goals mandated by congress and no, they cannot simply decide they don't want to.
Question: if we are going to avoid a tragedy of the commons, wouldn't that mean in some cases you have to say "no"?
In the OP article, the BLM is criticized for being too in the pocket of industry and allowing unsustainable resource extraction. Which brings up the point of old growth forests - there are not a lot of them. It makes sense to say "no" here? There are very few old growth forests around, yet they would be very profitable to chop down (let's recall Paul Bunyon chopping down the redwoods, that activity generated piles of cash). Thus the tension.
I would want us to focus most on the question that whether to have sustainability, at times you have to say no. For example, you can't go on a diet and then say yes to everything you want to eat - there has to be a time to say no.
With regards to how well the BLM has been run, how true it has been to its mission, and particularly over the years as it transitions from various leaders (flip-flopping from conservationist types to industry executives).. (A) I don't know how a coherent policy can be kept when leadership changes like that. (B) Yeah, BLM has a long history that is not great. The National Parks service at Yosemite used to have a bear feeding show that they did daily - where they would have a group of people in an amphitheater watch as they dumped out a bunch of food for bears to come and eat.. I mention that to say that government services/policy do not have a great track record and that I share your feelings that BLM is kinda all over the place and that we both share a lack of love for it.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm not trying to be shitty, but what other examples do you have? I don't know about that.
Another example would be various gas taxes were supposed to be for the maintenance of roads but now a fair portion of the revenue is diverted for other purposes. It depends on the state.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
"save the trees" is probably better re-labelled as "save the old growth trees". Would you agree? Would you consider tree farms as ecologically sound? (I'll note those are intentionally over-planted, homogeneous, and burn like crazy) Which key facts caused you to change your mind?
> "save the trees" is probably better re-labelled as "save the old growth trees". Would you agree? yes, we should most certainly protect old growth stands. they are very rare in the forests that i'm familiar with in the US east, and maintaining that ecology overrides any economic benefit gained from cutting the trees, imo. i'm in no way advocating for cutting down old growth stands, my comment was more in response to…
My reading list is already kinda long, I think that spares you from having to dig out any references :)
My curiosity is perhaps most of what would interest a thru-hiker. I always want to learn more about how forests work, things like "bears would live here" - "these types of edible plants would grow here". If there are any books along those lines that jump to your mind - I would be very interested to add those to my reading list.
Thank you again for your responses!
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've shared the sources in other threads. Here are some random ones I found with a few minutes of googling [ https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/ecological-values-of-old-... Most of these products do actually end up sequestering carbon nearly indefinitely, as unless the house or structure burns down, the product ends up in the landfill or remains on site. Unlike forest products on the forest floor, they don't naturall…
Sorry to ask you to go through other threads, but would you mind picking out the ones that show your math? The link you did share, has this table: https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/0... It also states [1]: "On sites like Fairy Creek, old forests are estimated to store twice as much carbon as mature forests and six or more times as much as clearcuts. Productive coastal old forests can store up…
They keep confusing the issue because they keep talking about storage. Because their underlying motivation is to have more old growth trees, and to pull carbon from the atmosphere as a secondary effect. Which hey, I get, they’re beautiful. But it’s still BS to say old growth is extracting carbon from the atmosphere faster than new growth.
To see for yourself, use that table they made and take ‘estimated total carbon’ and divide that (tons) by the estimated stand age. That gives you tons of carbon per year of stand age. The really old growth stands with the impressive (overall) carbon numbers actually have really terrible (relative) tons/year numbers. Like the first one is ~ 2.3 tons/year. Where if you go to the new growth stand and ignore year zero (because that has a super high number/divide by zero), it’s 13 tons/year. About ~6 times higher.
And note, it has to be that way. If you took the rate from the new stand, and multiplied it by the stand age for those old stands, the whole forest would have to be solid carbon with no air or gaps.
And unlike those old growth stands, the new growth stand is also producing useful-to-humans output like lumber as part of that calculation, where old growth stands will be nature preserves in this calculation.
In my experience, it’s useful to think of forests like a carbon ‘spring’, or even dam. They aren’t (generally) sequestering it the way the word tends to bring to mind (locking it in a warehouse somewhere maybe). Wood wants to burn in our atmosphere, especially dry and dead wood. If enough of it builds up, eventually that spring will release, or dam will break/overflow, and that carbon goes right back into the atmosphere. Usually in a catastrophic fashion.
Harvesting it and putting it somewhere it won’t rot is like releasing that spring or the water in the dam, without breaking anything.
Regarding your comment on chopped down forests not being fire resistant - it’s actually the other way around. Non-existent trees and brush can’t burn.
Additionally, not harvesting timber from most forests results in overgrown and sick trees, which are a nightmare forest fire wise. It’s why california (and other western states) keep catching on fire so badly, because logging has been so heavily restricted. I’ve done thinning work, and it’s night and day from disease and fire risk. Almost impossible to burn a forest after it’s been done, and it doesn’t want to.
Before that, it was a complete tinderbox.
Now don’t get me wrong, clear cut logging followed by terrible replanting and management practices are certainly be worse (fire wise) than just letting an old growth forest be. Especially since those tend to be in consistently very wet areas that don’t like to burn. But that isn’t how it’s been done in a long time, outside of perhaps random bandit operations.
In California’s climate, it requires cutting down a significant portion of trees and removing built up brush (or doing a controlled burn), or the whole thing turns into a mini-nuclear explosion waiting to go off.
Also, most of their numbers actually seem weird to me though, because as far as I’m aware, more independent data actually shows even newer growth at more like 1.5 tons/year on average across the US.
Edit - here comes some math (different links this time)
Ok, so the US Forest service says that research shows forested land in the United States sequestered 775 million metric tons of carbon/yr [https://www.fs.usda.gov/research/sites/default/files/2022-04... ], and also that the US has 819 million acres (approx.) of forested land.
Which is approx. 1/3 of all US land cover.
Notably, I don’t think that is discounting carbon released due to wildfires in those lands, but I might be mistaken.
That also works out to (on average) 1 metric ton of co2 stored per acre per year on forested land in the US.
If I remember correctly, another 1/3 of the US by landmass can be considered arable (there is overlap), aka can grow things, with some work.
The US EPA says that in 2021, the US released 6,340 million metric tons of fossil carbon, which was a notable decrease [https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indica....]
That means all US forested land sequestered enough carbon to represent a little over 10% of one years co2 emissions per year. Doubling all US forestland would therefore account for around 20% of each years co2 output.
If we figured we could double again efficiency by using fertilizer, etc. we’d still be stuck at only 40% of each years co2 output. And we’d starve, because we converted all our farmland to forests and those trees are generally not a good source of nutrition for humans. Also, we’d have to kill all the cows/pigs/etc.
So barring turning every forest into some sort of super productive co2 farm somehow, and converting all available fertile land in the US to do it while somehow not starving to death - I don’t see how we’d even pass 50%. And even then, I wouldn’t take that bet. :(
That hopefully also provides a more useful idea of the scale of the addiction humanity (and the US in particular) has with fossil carbon, when we’re digging up and burning the equivalent of 10x the rate our forests grow, every year, and we’re one of the top 10 most forested countries in the world.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would you be skeptical of tree farming leading to less carbon sequestering? The whole point of farming timber is to harvest wood which is lignin and cellulose aka CARBON. The green leaves on the tree are not what will store carbon. The green will fall off and become forest duff which gets digested by fungi and bugs and the carbon released back to the atmosphere. Goal of timber companies == make more timber timber…
Only if the timber gets used long-term. I would argue that a lot of timber doesn't get sequestered for more than a few decades because people tear down old houses and build more density in their place on those time scales. And then that old timber ends up in the landfill. It's even worse for flooring, trim and casing because people rip and replace those constantly over their lifetime because it's all cheap whitewood…
Timber often doesn't breakdown in landfills due to the level of compaction