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US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

arstechnica.com

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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#121

Post by petegrif »

slurgfest wrote: post #29
rooshdi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violation of international law huh...as long as the law doesn't apply to America or Israel I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_s... http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/29/us-israel-nuclear-... Oh, that and the fact that America and Israel can't trust anyone but themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-9aAFvWXA

No arguments on settlements, but would you point to hard evidence that the US is in violation of NPT? I am getting tired of sourceless claims here.

I think the (debatable ) key point here is that the treaty was a bargain between the then possessors of nuclear weapons and non-nuclear states. The deal was that non-nuclear states wouldn't develop weapons and the nuclear states would disarm. After the treaty was signed and non-nuclear states (largely) complied the number of weapons increased radically for decades and the destructive power of weapons in theater today is still massively greater than the weapons at signing. It can therefore be argued that the holders of the weapons have consistently acted contrary to the terms of the treaty. They have undisputably acted contrary to the spirit of the deal underlying the treaty.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#122

Post by Symmetry »

dantheman wrote: post #103

How is this not an act of war? Doesn't congress need approve military actions of this sort?

No, the president would need Congressional approval to have military units in Iran for more than 90 days. In practice presidents almost always ask Congress for advance approval, since having to pull out in the middle of an invasion would be rather embarrassing. The only exception that comes to mind is Reagan's invasion of Grenada, where the US military was in and out easily under the time limit.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#123

Post by salimmadjd »

berntb wrote: post #69
bluedanieru wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war itself isn't nearly as terrifying, but somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War.

>>somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War. Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Consider that democracies in general seems to go crazy when they have active terrorism problems and throw out human rights and the law book. E.g. Germany, USA, Israel, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, etc. (The only…

>>Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Really? Sounds like rewriting the history again. Everything I read pointed 911 to pakistin intelligence and Saudis

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#124

Post by derrida »

slurgfest wrote: post #32
derrida wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aaron Barr talks to Defence Intelligence Agency and DoD about StuxNet in 2010, they had a copy given to them in 2009 that they claim was a US produced binary. Keep in mind stuxnet was 'discovered' in 2010. First reference to Stuxnet being U.S. government produced? You decide.

"You decide" a convenient way to avoid providing evidence of strong claims while still making them? You decide.

Yes. Exactly, sorry, it's a lazy cliche, but I do think the evidence is there in the HB Gary emails that enables one to conclude beyond some reasonable level of doubt it was U.S. produced. However, the NY Times piece does provide evidence from the mouth of the source, and has far more detail.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#125

Post by jpxxx »

andylei wrote: post #92
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

>> Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. you know, its possible that the US, Israel, AND Iran are all doing bad things. just because Iran is not being condemned by a some media organizations does not mean it has any meaningful high ground. why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? if they weren't, why would they be developing secret enrichment facilities? why would "The IAEA B…

It is a stone cold, dead in the ground for a decade, crystalline clear FACT that Iran has no nuclear weapon manufacturing program, and no plausible capacity to engage in one in the near future. Period, full stop, end telegram.

Armed with this certainty, you can now begin to answer the rest of your questions for yourself.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#126

Post by berntb »

jbattle wrote: post #120
berntb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War. Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Consider that democracies in general seems to go crazy when they have active terrorism problems and throw out human rights and the law book. E.g. Germany, USA, Israel, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, etc. (The only…

I don't think it's as simple as "Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism." Every powerful country uses violence to advance it's political goals. Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries, publicly expressing varying amounts of regret.

The parallel comment by salimmadjd has a point about Pakistan maybe being even worse than Iran, when it comes to terror support (I do doubt that Saudi A as a country is worse).

I might stand corrected, there.

>>Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries

To explicitly target civilians is serious because it breaks the laws of war, etc. Democracies generally don't do that.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#127

Post by Symmetry »

Morg wrote: post #102
dpark wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can't "safely" say that. You've no evidence that the US military has ever been involved in creating a wide-scale biological pandemic. This is just conspiracy theory bunk. I'm not sure how you can reasonably compare testing nuclear weapons to the supposed propagation of HIV, either. These two things have nothing in common.

Alright, you want details ? During the testing of nuclear weapons, the US had no problem testing the secondary effects of nukes through radiation far beyond the blast zone, by putting boats with soldiers to watch the thing. It was widely known at that time that radiation was bad for you mkay, and that nuclear fission bombs were nuclear fission bombs, i.e. accelerated nuclear degradation bombs and drained all their ex…

Yes, the US has done bad things, and AIDS is a bad thing, but it doesn't follow that the US caused AIDS. After all, nature has had no trouble creating pandemics without any deliberate human help over the centuries.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#128

Post by salimmadjd »

andylei wrote: post #92
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

>> Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. you know, its possible that the US, Israel, AND Iran are all doing bad things. just because Iran is not being condemned by a some media organizations does not mean it has any meaningful high ground. why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? if they weren't, why would they be developing secret enrichment facilities? why would "The IAEA B…

>> why would "The IAEA Board of Governors passed a resolution[186] by a vote of 32–2

Because of pressure from Israeli lobby. I follow this very carefully, and most of it is propaganda to provide impunity to Israel for current and future actions.

The fact is, Iranian still unable to refine oil in industrial scale without outside help. Enriching U like any thing else becomes harder as you reach higher purity. US intelligence confirmed there has been no move to militarizing their nuclear technology.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#129

Post by salimmadjd »

andylei wrote: post #92
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

>> Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. you know, its possible that the US, Israel, AND Iran are all doing bad things. just because Iran is not being condemned by a some media organizations does not mean it has any meaningful high ground. why are you skeptical that iran is trying to develop nuclear weapons? if they weren't, why would they be developing secret enrichment facilities? why would "The IAEA B…

>> why would "The IAEA Board of Governors passed a resolution[186] by a vote of 32–2

Because of pressure from Israeli lobby. I follow this very carefully, and most of it is propaganda to provide impunity to Israel for current and future actions.

The fact is, Iranian still unable to refine oil in industrial scale without outside help. Enriching U like any thing else becomes harder as you reach higher purity. US intelligence confirmed there has been no move to militarizing their nuclear technology.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#130

Post by jpxxx »

technoslut wrote: post #98
cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

Much of the news is based on propaganda and assumptions. >No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. You may believe that but it doesn't make it so. There was a recent story about how UN inspectors found traces of uranium that were enriched higher than they were supposed to be for civilian purposes.

140kg of uranium was enriched to 20% isotope purity for ostensible use in a medical isotope reactor. That's a civilian purpose.

Weaponized uranium requires 85% isotope purity.

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