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Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

science.org

121–130 of 159 posts

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#121
post #63

How big of a deal is this? Isn’t it basically a 10/10? Seems like it could open up MRI’s to everyone.

Not a big deal at all. You can make an "MRI" with literally zero magnetic field strength like this. Just make an AI hallucinate the entire super crisp image!

This is what this paper is basically doing it seems. "Look how clear the image is!" yea, because it's not real, it's AI generated garbage.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#123
post #72

I'm a radiologist and very sceptic about low-field MRI + ML actually replacing normal high-field MRI for standard diagnostic purposes. But in a emergency setting or especially for MRI-guided interventions these low-field MRIs can really play a significant role. Combining these low-field MRIs with rapid imaging techniques makes me really excited about what interventional techniques become possible.

What is it about lower fields that means you cannot get a good image? Interference? Tissue movement in longer exposures? Why can't the device just integrate over a longer period of time?

It's just the physical reality of nuclear magnetic resonance. SNR scales with B^(3/2), since the signal scales with B^2 and the noise scales with root B.

This means going from 0.05T to 1.5T boosts your sensitivity ~150x. Measurement time scales with sensitivity^2, so you'd have to measure 20k x longer.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#124
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one aspect about machine learning models I keep discussing with non-technical passengers of the AI-hype-train: They are (in their current form) unsitable for applications where correctness is absolutely critical.

As long as AI makes things better on average, it's useful. It doesn't have to be 100% correct.

So if an AI fantasized your face into the extrapolated pixels of the evidence for a documented murder case you would be happy with the conviction, because on average it might be somewhat correct?

I don't wanna hurt anybodies feelings by stating that AI isn't a magical wand that makes everything better — but every technology has use cases at which it excels (e.g. pattern recognition) and use cases for which it is fundamentally unsuitable. If you try to screw on a nut using a hammer, that doesn't mean hammers suck, it means the user has a wrong idea what a hammer is capable of.

The point is: Don't be that person if you can avoid it.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#125

I can't read the full article but low-T MRI is potentially a big deal IMO because a 0.05T magnetic coil can be air or water-cooled but higher T-magnets (like 1.5 and 3T MRI magnets) have to use superconducting wire and thus must be cooled to sub 60K temperatures (even down to sub 10K) using Helium refrigeration cycles. I worked for a time at a company that made MRI calibration standards (among many other things). hel…

> low-T MRI is potentially a big deal IMO because a 0.05T magnetic coil can be air or water-cooled

Even better, they just use a big permanent magnet.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#127
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of us want a record of what was, not a hallucination of what might have or could have been. Courts, for example. Forensic science was revolutionized by widespread adoption of photography leading to a reduction of the importance given to witnesses. Who also hallucinate what might have happened.

So when I took an 8 second exposure of the aurora on Friday and then used Capture One to process the raw to make it more vivid than it was in real life - is that a record of what was? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not super keen on AI type stuff in cameras as a whole. The line is muddy though. A smartphone camera straight up can’t capture the moon well, or at all. If it then looks more like it did in real life after proces…

How often do you capture auroras or other beauty shots, vs. readouts on your electricity meter, stickers on the back of your furnace, receipts, and a hundred other displays and documents you need to send someone? I definitely do plenty of the latter, and in such cases, I'd really appreciate the AI to not spice things up with details it thinks should be there.

I'm by no means against the feature. Hell, I shoot 90% of my family photos in Portrait mode on my Galaxy phone, which does some creative bluring and probably some other magic[0]. I just really appreciate being able to turn the magic on or off myself. That, and knowing exactly what the magic is[1].

--

[0] - I don't know what exactly it does, but switching from normal to Portrait mode is all it takes for my photos to suddenly look amazing, as judged by my wife, vs. plain sucking.

[1] - See e.g. "scene optimizer" in Galaxy phones. It's a toggle on normal photo mode. I have no first clue what it does, I can't see any obvious immediate difference between shots taken with vs. without that feature.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#128
post #8

Medical imaging devices and medical devices in general are a racket. There are only a few companies and they are legal and lobbying departments first and foremost. This isn't the first time radical and radically cheaper prototypes have been proposed, but the unsolved bit it actually convincing anyone to buy. A colleague had a device and a veteran adviced him to 10x the price.

> the unsolved bit it actually convincing anyone to buy. Surely a lot of small hospitals would jump at the chance at a small cheap MRI? I don't understand how the incumbents have much legal leverage here...

You need a specialist to understand an MRI image. Maybe software will advance enough to change this, but it will be a slow progress. Also, carterls are definitely a thing. Radiologists will fight the software part.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#129
post #120

That Science let this through peer review and editor filtering is pretty damning. This wouldn't pass 5 minutes of review here on Hacker News.

That's because people on Hacker News don't know shit. Everyone here who has a superficial understanding of deep learning and believes they know what an MRI is comes up with extremely strong opinions, but it is very obvious that noone here has even read the full article beyond the abstract (or even the title). There are legitimate questions and concerns you can raise about this article, but not a single one of them is found in this comment section.

Re: Whole-body magnetic resonance imaging at 0.05 Tesla

#130
post #24

A few months ago there were articles going around about how Samsung galaxy phones were upscaling images of the Moon using AI [0]. Essentially, the model was artificially adding landmarks and details based on its training set when the real image quality was too poor to make out details. Needless to say, AI upscaling as described in this article would be a nightmare for radiologists. 90% of radiology is confirming the…

The interesting, indeed concerning thing, is that problem is not only applied to medical machines and mobile phones but to zillions of daily used wearable devices such as smart watches, brain eeg (e.g. Muse), and others without adverting users that what they see (e.g. HRV) couldn't be interpreted easily by a computer program.

Not saying that we humans are always better but saying that we are believing in number and conclusions from apps created as-is.

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