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Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

nohello.com

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Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#121

Post by Chris2048 »

CipherThrowaway wrote: post #62
Chris2048 wrote: post #7

The other person isn't necessarily waiting for the response. At the least, its a communication that you are about to ask them something, i.e. check back here in the next minute or so while I type out my question. Also, "Hi" is a good way of finding out if a person is present, sometimes you might ask to call them instead of typing your question. It also might be the case there are multiple people who can answer the qu…

> At the least, its a communication that you are about to ask them something, i.e. check back here in the next minute or so while I type out my question. This is part of what makes it such poor etiquette. You've created this ambiguous, open-ended distraction for the other person. You expect them to divert focus away from what they're doing so they can poll the chat channel waiting for you to get your thoughts in orde…

> You expect them to divert focus away from what they're doing so they can poll the chat channel

They don't need to poll a channel, most chat applications will pop up a notification when a message appears.

What they can poll is the chat app icon, and to not be AFK in the next few minutes.

What would be the purpose of providing more context before actually asking a question?

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#122

Post by Chris2048 »

smeej wrote: post #119
Chris2048 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's say you go up to a group of people working on desks. You ask "Is anyone free to help me with ?". Is this a "selfish communication"? What about messages posted in a group chat?

No, that is a reasonable way to ask for help. What would be "selfish communication" would be to walk up to a group of people working at desks and just say, "Hello," and stand there awkwardly waiting for them to acknowledge you. Same thing with a group chat. Asking, "Is anyone free to help me with X?" is a reasonable way to ask for help. Sending a whole group of people, "Hello," is a waste of everyone's time.

This was a question for CipherThrowaway specifically.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#123

Post by d1sxeyes »

smeej wrote: post #111
d1sxeyes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that is true, nevertheless it’s nice to consider that people are human and make mistakes. It can be quite difficult to ‘correct’ that mistake once made, as in order to disable notifications, you often need to open up the chat app itself, which makes all of your conversations flash up on the screen. Yes, of course you can always just stop sharing, disable notifications, and re-enable, but nevertheless, I always…

If you spend your time trying to account for every mistake someone might make, you're going to waste an awful lot of your life. Most people spend only a tiny amount of time sharing their screen on a call. The people who do a lot of it are well-practiced in managing their notifications. There's no good reason to make your normal communication worse for the sake of avoiding such a rare problem.

Not normal communication, confidential or contentious communication.

“Hey, could you send me a link to the Jones file?” or “When do we need to get the Acme Corp RfP response out by?” I would just fire over.

“John says the financials don’t work on the Bravo Inc renewal, can you take a look?” or “Jenny’s not doing great on her PIP, we might need to move to the next step”, I would be more careful with.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#124

Post by Chris2048 »

smeej wrote: post #116
Chris2048 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> explaining why your reasons don't support your arguments, and explaining what the real reasons Their opinion differs to mine, and I also disagree with some of the counter-arguments. Describing their responses as "real" versus mine is evidence that you've made up your mind, and are no longer objective about the topic. > your idea of "reason" is also different from everybody else's reasoning can be flawed or incorrec…

First, let's define "reason": a statement offered in explanation or justification [0] > sometimes you might ask to call them instead of typing your question. Does not explain or justify. Is not a reason. The possibility that you might ask to call has no bearing on whether or not you should start with "Hello," because if you are going to ask to call, you would be better served by just asking to call in the initial mes…

So, something is (or isn't) "reason" based on your judgement on what is reasonable or justified? What if you are wrong?

> The possibility that you might ask to call has no bearing on whether or not you should start with "Hello," because if you are going to ask to call, you would be better served by just asking to call

If they respond (within a minute, say), you might ask for a call. If they don't, you instead type out the question, and check back later. Hence the response (asking for call, vs question) depends on the answer to "Hi".

> if you are going to send the message to multiple people, you would be better served by sending your actual question

Why? If someone else is answering, I explicitly don't want another person to start working on the question. If anyone one responds while I've already asked the question, I can just tell them I no longer need help - they waste little to no time or focus working on finding an answer.

> Even if you get more than one answer, you can just thank the people for their responses

This seems like a much bigger waste of other peoples time.

> you are still better served by having them know why you wanted to talk, since they can better appreciate why you would have sent multiple messages

why am I "better served" by this? They don't need to know what I might have asked, it's a distraction for them.

> if you do need someone to be present, you would be better served by having them already know what you might need them to be present to discuss

If they aren't present, the discussion may not happen.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#125

Post by Chris2048 »

smeej wrote: post #118
Chris2048 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the implied delay between "Hello" and "Yes?"?

Does it matter? Whether it's instantaneous or happens over the course of hours, that type of communication contributes nothing to anything.

Yes, but there is already a thread between you and me specifically on that topic so there's no need to answer other comments.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#126

Post by smeej »

Chris2048 wrote: post #124
smeej wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let's define "reason": a statement offered in explanation or justification [0] > sometimes you might ask to call them instead of typing your question. Does not explain or justify. Is not a reason. The possibility that you might ask to call has no bearing on whether or not you should start with "Hello," because if you are going to ask to call, you would be better served by just asking to call in the initial mes…

So, something is (or isn't) "reason" based on your judgement on what is reasonable or justified? What if you are wrong? > The possibility that you might ask to call has no bearing on whether or not you should start with "Hello," because if you are going to ask to call, you would be better served by just asking to call If they respond (within a minute, say), you might ask for a call. If they don't, you instead type ou…

No, according to the dictionary, something is a reason if it explains or justifies your previous statement. If its answer has no bearing whatsoever on the previous statement, it's not a reason. It's just a statement.

If you can give a single example of a situation where saying "Hello" instead of actually including your question, by all means make it, but you are the only one who can't see how poorly you communicate.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#127

Post by Chris2048 »

smeej wrote: post #126
Chris2048 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, something is (or isn't) "reason" based on your judgement on what is reasonable or justified? What if you are wrong? > The possibility that you might ask to call has no bearing on whether or not you should start with "Hello," because if you are going to ask to call, you would be better served by just asking to call If they respond (within a minute, say), you might ask for a call. If they don't, you instead type ou…

No, according to the dictionary, something is a reason if it explains or justifies your previous statement. If its answer has no bearing whatsoever on the previous statement, it's not a reason. It's just a statement. If you can give a single example of a situation where saying "Hello" instead of actually including your question, by all means make it, but you are the only one who can't see how poorly you communicate.

Great, you disagree. Now kindly stop commenting.

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#129

Post by dang »

Related. Others?

Don't ask to ask, just ask - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39762546 - March 2024 (37 comments)

Please don't say just hello in chat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36623348 - July 2023 (126 comments)

No Hello: A New Wave - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33906174 - Dec 2022 (57 comments)

How to gently enforce “nohello” to a coworker? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31578259 - June 2022 (1 comment)

Please Don't Say Just Hello in Chat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31088433 - April 2022 (43 comments)

No hello – please don't just say hello in chat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30642052 - March 2022 (77 comments)

Don't ask to ask, just ask (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30639225 - March 2022 (366 comments)

A better way to say Hello - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30094833 - Jan 2022 (1 comment)

No Hello (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29978860 - Jan 2022 (67 comments)

Don't Ask to Ask - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29603250 - Dec 2021 (2 comments)

No-Hello - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28682658 - Sept 2021 (8 comments)

Please don't say just hello in chat (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25881800 - Jan 2021 (350 comments)

Don't ask to ask, just ask - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24259156 - Aug 2020 (101 comments)

No Hello (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24239880 - Aug 2020 (210 comments)

Please Don't Say Just Hello In Chat (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19648415 - April 2019 (265 comments)

Please Don't Say Just Hello in Chat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14868294 - July 2017 (46 comments)

Re: Don't Just Say "Hello" in Chat

#130

Post by CipherThrowaway »

Chris2048 wrote: post #93
CipherThrowaway wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's even worse. You're sending out rounds of "Hi's" to multiple people, distracting them to prepare them for a question you might not even ask? Candidly, you sound like an incredibly selfish communicator.

let's say you go up to a group of people working on desks. You ask "Is anyone free to help me with ?". Is this a "selfish communication"? What about messages posted in a group chat?

It definitely can be. The presence of uncontrolled interruptions is a common complaint in open offices. Individual employees tend to manage this issue with noise cancelling headphones. I've also seen eng managers create dedicated periods of focus time or designate a focus room for this reason.

But it doesn't matter either way, because in-person is a different medium to text with a different dynamic. If you'd read the article, you'd see this is directly called out:

> You're trying to be polite by not jumping right into the request, like you would do in person or on the phone. But Chat is neither of those things.

A group message is still chat, but it is a different dynamic to sending out individual messages. Can you honestly say - in good faith - that you don't see the differences between directly and personally addressing someone, versus addressing a group? Try to put yourself in other people's place and imagine how these things might be different.

I also agree with the sibling comment that walking up to a bunch of people working and saying "Hello" with no context then waiting around for a response would be poor etiquette. If you can see that people aren't working - that they are taking a break or already idly chatting - then I would say it's fine. But these are the types of rich context clues that you get from in-person communication that you usually don't get from chat.

Your reply from elsewhere:

> They don't need to poll a channel, most chat applications will pop up a notification when a message appears.

It was you that said the purpose of "hi" was to have them check back. If the notification were sufficient on its own, then you wouldn't need to say "hi" at all. They'll receive a notification once you ask your question either way. The selfishness is in the asymmetry of the interaction. The standalone "hi" is the lowest effort and highest ambiguity way of interrupting someone and asking for their attention.

> What would be the purpose of providing more context before actually asking a question?

So that people have some idea of how important your question is going to be, how long it might take to answer, whether it is relevant to the work they're currently doing and so on. Maybe you see a "hi" in chat and it doesn't matter to you either way. If that's the case, you are probably a minority among technical workers.

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