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Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

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Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#121

Post by klodolph »

Aurornis wrote: post #49
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #3

> The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough. You just need to read another 50,000 word fasterthanlime essay. Then you'll not have problems any more. > That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you g…

Parts of the Rust community are toxic indeed, but I've been around long enough to recognize the same pattern in communities of other hot programming languages or frameworks in their up-and-coming phase. There's something about the new hot language/framework/paradigm that always attracts the type of people who wrap their identity up in the hot new thing. They take any criticisms of their new favorite thing as criticis…

> Parts of the Rust community are toxic indeed, but I've been around long enough to recognize the same pattern in communities of other hot programming languages or frameworks in their up-and-coming phase.

Yeah. I think there’s also a weird way that newcomers get treated when they join a community. When you’re a newcomer to Rust, you probably have some preconceptions about how Rust should work based on the other languages you know, and you’re probably running into a lot of the same problems with Rust that everyone else has (e.g. borrow checker).

Most of the community is just kinda tired of the discussion and tired of answering the same questions, so they don’t interact with the noobs at all. That means that the people who, as you say, “thrive on dunking on noobs all day long”, are the primary point of contact for noobs.

Finding a decent programming community these days is a pain in the ass. The cool people, i.e., the people working on cool projects and getting shit done, are mostly busy and not hanging out with anybody.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#123

Post by satvikpendem »

Pxtl wrote: post #47
kleiba wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, nice one! :-) (can only assume you're joking)

Since every other language now has higher order functions and lexical closures and things like that Lisp isn't as special as it used to be. Now it's mostly just a really ugly version of those languages but with a weird emphasis on recursion and a very fancy macro facility. I find I can move between dynamic languages and Scheme pretty easily.

Lisp is homoiconic which most other languages are not. This makes it useful for certain applications over others.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#124

Post by npalli » 

   By the time the Rust developer is finished with their refactoring, the C++/C#/Java/JavaScript developer has implemented many different gameplay features, played the game a bunch and tried them all out, and has a better understanding of which direction should their game be taking.
Man, slower than C++, that's pretty damning.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#125

Post by lylejantzi3rd »

WalterBright wrote: post #43

> Making a fun & interesting games is about rapid prototyping and iteration, Rust's values are everything but that I found this to be true of C after many, many years coding in C. I noticed that the first selection of data layout stayed throughout the life of the code (with a lot of tweaks, additions, etc.). But didn't really think that much about it. Until I started writing code in D. It was easy to change the data…

You could hack the C compiler!

https://github.com/tsoding/tic-tac-toe-auto-deref

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKI-VOBBFu8

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#126

Post by jonnycat »

ChubbyGlasses wrote: post #61
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #3

> The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough. You just need to read another 50,000 word fasterthanlime essay. Then you'll not have problems any more. > That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you g…

This was my biggest problem with rust, the community is, at a surface level friendly, but the moment you try to say something against the grain you get met with some of the most insufferable people ever. I tried to mention a problem with a lint on the official forms and the replies were so condescending (from regulars at that too). And at no point did they try to understand the issue, they just assumed I was dumb/new…

The attitude is perhaps not surprising from a community whose unofficial tagline is "Rewrite it in Rust".

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#127

Post by gorjusborg »

cultofmetatron wrote: post #69
Pxtl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since every other language now has higher order functions and lexical closures and things like that Lisp isn't as special as it used to be. Now it's mostly just a really ugly version of those languages but with a weird emphasis on recursion and a very fancy macro facility. I find I can move between dynamic languages and Scheme pretty easily.

as someone who writes elixir all day, I really love what lisp is but I feel lisp's major weakness is that it makes everythign unergonomic in order to make macros very ergonomic. You will never find another language in which writing macros is easier. the problem is it comes at the cost of doing everything else a bit of a pain in the ass. I love elixir because it feels like the syntax clojure would have if it had a syn…

> it makes everythign unergonomic in order to make macros very ergonomic

I think 'everything is unergonomic' is a too strong of a statement to be true.

I'd argue that lisp is very ergonomic for those who work with it regularly (and are into using Emacs). It sounds like you are beefing with the syntax (or lack thereof) and homoiconicity of Lisp. I can understand that. It is a very different language than others currently in the mainstream for that reason.

As far as overall ergonomics, I'd say the REPL/image-based development style and the macros that are enabled due to homoiconicity actually make it one of the most ergonomic languages in existence.

The biggest thing that prevents Lisp-likes from going mainstream is that it is too ergonomic, specifically, when you start reading a Lisp codebase, you essentially are signing up to learn a new project-specific dialect. Very ergonomic for writing code, but at the cost of understanding how that code operates.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#128

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

BoorishBears wrote: post #23
nu11ptr wrote: post #19

As much as I love Rust I sometimes wonder if I'd be more productive in a simpler language. If I wrote it every day I'm not sure that would be true, but as a hobbyist coming back to Rust sometimes takes me a bit to get back in the zone. Also, still not a fan of async, as it is woefully incomplete and fairly complicated in some use cases. That said, I just can't go back to Go with nil pointers and lack of decent enums/…

Isn't that just Swift/Kotlin?

And Zig maybe?

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#129

Post by eddd-ddde »

mjr00 wrote: post #73

In my experience, fundamentally when you're starting a software project, you need to make a strong up-front decision between two things: 1. I am using technology in order to build this thing. 2. I am building this thing in order to use this technology. Developers often fall in the (2) camp but don't admit it. There's an allure to using the new, sexy tech that will solve all their problems, whether that's Rust, Kubern…

This is what I like to call the artist vs engineer dilemma.

1. An engineer solves problems, learning and using tools. 2. And artist learns and uses tools, for the sake of it.

Neither is wrong, and some times they benefit each other. I believe much of academia and research is heavy on the artist side. You just have to be clear on which one you are at any given point.

I'm not gonna use assembly for my $JOB where we need some basic web backend. That's not gonna stop me from trying on my free time tho.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#130

Post by sk11001 »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #115
candiddevmike wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I see now in certain Rust communities feels a lot like what I saw in Golang communities in the early days. I had similar experiences when React was the new kid on the block, too. Go was released in 2012, Rust in 2015. Are you saying we are still in the early days of Rust?

Yes. C was invented in the '70s and only got standardized 20 years later. And Rust's ~20 years is young in systems lang terms (the alternatives, C and C++, are 50 and 40 years old). And nobody had TikTok back then.

You’re moving the goalposts though, the question was about Go. Which 3 years ago was nothing like Rust today. Because it’s much more pragmatic “here’s the trade-offs we had to make and why” language. Growing in and out of a cult isn’t a natural part of a language’s evolution like the GP comment suggested.
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