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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#121

Post by wilmoore »

zedshaw wrote: post #62
j45 wrote: post #53

"Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers" Zing. A great litmus test that's simple and has results too. Too many programming communities, including the most popular web frameworks that are the be all and end all to everything have elements of this. It's not something to be proud of to feel better about yourself by putting others down, telling others what they do, or how they do it, or who the…

It's not just programming. I run into this with guitarists too. I mostly play for my own enjoyment, but I constantly run into guitarists who get off on treating beginners like crap. Even in music schools they do this, and for some weird reason they think that this is how you make students awesome. Ultimately, these kinds of behaviors in teachers don't make better students, they just kill off the more fragile ones who…

Correct. It isn't just programming. You actually summarized it well when you wrote that people need to do other things (besides programming or besides whatever it is they identify so closely with) so that they don't resent others for "sliding" into their world.

People with more than one passion will generally find less time to resent and more time to educate :)

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#123

Post by drawkbox »

Valve has what they call a 'T-shaped model employee'. One who is 'broad range generalist' good at a wide swath of things, then really an expert at a few key skills with 'deep expertise in one area'.

http://i.imgur.com/SAg9a.png

There is nothing wrong with someone learning to code but that might not become their deep expertise. However people understanding abstractions and the skill it takes to code is a good thing.

To take Atwood's analogy, people might use coding the way I use plumbing, I did it just enough to know I need to call someone when I need some plumbing, others might become plumbers.

I actually think that is what he was trying to say. Programming will not become everyone's 'deep expertise'.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#124

Post by laughinghan »

zedshaw wrote: post #109
B-Con wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an interesting question, because so many people claim to have read his post yet have no idea what he actually said. Please re-read it. The post title was an exaggeration, like almost all of his blog post titles are. If you actually read the content of the post, you realize that he clearly wasn't actually saying.

I did read it, and he's wrong. That's why I wrote mine.

You did read it, and he's wrong, and that's why you wrote an article that did not respond to his (supposedly wrong) arguments at all, and instead presented an ad hominem attack saying he "[gets] off on making beginners feel like they're worthless for attempting something"?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#125

Post by saraid216 »

demian wrote: post #68
cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

I don't believe this post gets the real reason why Jeff said what he said. In my opinion, Jeff projected some of his issues with the current state of the software development profession (mainly the "hack fist, ask questions later" aproach). The idea that bothered him wasn't born from elitism, identity, or the fact that people were learning to code, but the idea that, to him, this makes this issue worse . It's true th…

Except that Jeff would still be wrong on this count. If more people were trying to learn how to program, there would be a lot more effort devoted to figuring out how to teach coding better.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#126

Post by prayag »

zedshaw wrote: post #86
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

The title says "Please don't learn to code". The rest of the post is just more of that in different words. Wow, alright I'm just going to stop replying to people who can't even read the title, but still claim it's not saying what it says.

If you are insinuating that I didn't read your article. I did. That is why I made the comment.

I didn't think much of it. The tangent about Atwood's son was completely tangential and unrelated. Atwood's argument was not about computer science education, it wasn't about meritocracy. You completely missed the point.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#127

Post by prayag »

nboshart wrote: post #95
prayag wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm refuting his statement that other people should not become programmers, and that only a few chosen few should. But Atwood didn't say that. All he said was that it's a trade like Plumbing and not a life skill like being able to read. >The resentment comes from me talking to many programmers who say the same thing. But programmers DON'T mostly say that. In fact, I had a very animated discussion with Randy Stross o…

But it IS a life skill. It's not comparable to reading or writing maybe, but it is comparable to financial planning. People don't learn to write budgets properly so they go broke. People don't know how computers work, even just the basics, but operate these machines every day as part of their work and their home life. Knowing how to use a command line to look for viruses, how to monitor your home network, or even wha…

I would agree that it is more of life skill than say learning about European history. Or calculus.

But so is basic electronics and basic electrical engineering. Where do we draw the line in the modern world?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#128

Post by keithpeter »

zedshaw wrote: post #96
sasha-dv wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, your motive for attack on Jeff is self-interest? edit: an elaboration I'm trying to figure out what exactly Jeff wrote that you hate so much. You don't even consider his arguments, you just have "a guess about Jeff, and a general message about other people who feel the same way." Jeff wouldn't write something like this: "Don't listen to the hipsters who claim that coding is as vital as reading, and who claim that…

I believe it is a vital skill, but that it's not being taught well enough so that's why people don't think it is. The same could be said about nearly everything we teach in K-12 at some point in the subject's history. Also, it's not an attack, it's a counter-attack. People really need to get their order of events in the right order of events.

"The same could be said about nearly everything we teach in K-12 at some point in the subject's history"

I've been teaching for 25 years in post 18 colleges in the UK, and I have the granddaughter of one of my first students in my class now (god I feel old, my consolation is that granny was a mature student in her late 20s/early 30s when she did maths with me).

Many of my students are earning money from jobs that did not exist when I was teaching them.

Stuff changes, but learning how to think does not. There is a tension between the synthetic and the analytic, and we need both. Teenagers need to learn attention to detail, and the big picture, and time planning, and the focusing of attention. The school syllabus in every country is a political compromise that shifts over time.

I think a little space for end user style programming might help with the analytic and synthetic modes a little.

Challenge: Learn Puredata the hard way, let's do the attention to detail thing your books do to music by constructing sound?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#129

Post by keithpeter »

Produce wrote: post #114
keithpeter wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"For example, when I'm debugging, I don't think, I simply let my mind explore the catacombs and the solution bubbles up from my subconscious." http://press.princeton.edu/titles/5896.html Get a copy from your nearest library. You are operating in the same mode as most creative mathematicians. My girlfriends at University had to cope with a shorthand pad and pen on the bedside, and being totally ignored for 24 hours at…

Definitely grabbing a copy of that, I had no idea. Incidentally, I'm one of those developers who hate intellisense and prefer to memorise the code structure, I guess that's where the priming is happening. Thanks for expanding my awareness.

Thanks for that, I work as a teacher and people give me money for helping people expand their awareness. Always amazes me that they do :-)

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#130

Post by j45 »

zedshaw wrote: post #62
j45 wrote: post #53

"Never listen to people who try to make beginners feel like losers" Zing. A great litmus test that's simple and has results too. Too many programming communities, including the most popular web frameworks that are the be all and end all to everything have elements of this. It's not something to be proud of to feel better about yourself by putting others down, telling others what they do, or how they do it, or who the…

It's not just programming. I run into this with guitarists too. I mostly play for my own enjoyment, but I constantly run into guitarists who get off on treating beginners like crap. Even in music schools they do this, and for some weird reason they think that this is how you make students awesome. Ultimately, these kinds of behaviors in teachers don't make better students, they just kill off the more fragile ones who…

Really true Zed. Was trying to keep it relevant to hnews as the programming framework/language fanatics are everywhere, including here from time to time :)
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