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Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

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Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#121

Post by throwaway290 »

freedomben wrote: post #119
throwaway290 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mitproxy lets you one tap install a config profile that does it. You know like you sometimes need to do in Korea or Kazakhstan... It's routine. But I don't get you. You complained that droid makes it hard and apple makes it impossible. But it would be better for average user security if they could not do it (aka "did not own the device" in anti-apple propaganda), right?

> But I don't get you. You complained that droid makes it hard and apple makes it impossible. I didn't complain about anything, I just stated the facts, with a possible exception regarding the snark about how Apple "owns" the device, although I do think that's a defensible position since they have higher access to it than it's "owner". I do think it's shitty though that they don't provide a way (even with some hoops)…

It would be better because if not then someone can turn it off. Automatically or by misinforming the user or by requiring it etc. Like now on ios you apparently just need to install a profile, maybe it's too easy.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#122

Post by smoldesu »

throwaway290 wrote: post #121
freedomben wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I don't get you. You complained that droid makes it hard and apple makes it impossible. I didn't complain about anything, I just stated the facts, with a possible exception regarding the snark about how Apple "owns" the device, although I do think that's a defensible position since they have higher access to it than it's "owner". I do think it's shitty though that they don't provide a way (even with some hoops)…

It would be better because if not then someone can turn it off. Automatically or by misinforming the user or by requiring it etc. Like now on ios you apparently just need to install a profile, maybe it's too easy.

Well an MDM profile isn't going to decrypt iCloud data or Apple telemetry. It's basically the same dangerous power your ISP and DNS provider wields, but nobody is about to suggest banning those for user safety too.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#123

Post by throwaway290 »

smoldesu wrote: post #122
throwaway290 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be better because if not then someone can turn it off. Automatically or by misinforming the user or by requiring it etc. Like now on ios you apparently just need to install a profile, maybe it's too easy.

Well an MDM profile isn't going to decrypt iCloud data or Apple telemetry. It's basically the same dangerous power your ISP and DNS provider wields, but nobody is about to suggest banning those for user safety too.

Sounds like dangerous disinfo. Your ISP or DNS cannot decrypt your HTTPS traffic.

But someone who slips in a custom CA cert maybe can. That's the point.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#124

Post by smoldesu »

throwaway290 wrote: post #123
smoldesu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well an MDM profile isn't going to decrypt iCloud data or Apple telemetry. It's basically the same dangerous power your ISP and DNS provider wields, but nobody is about to suggest banning those for user safety too.

Sounds like dangerous disinfo. Your ISP or DNS cannot decrypt your HTTPS traffic. But someone who slips in a custom CA cert maybe can. That's the point.

That's the point, indeed. Your ISP and DNS can technically intercept your traffic, but it's pointless since TLS exists. Similarly, you can Wireshark an iPhone using MDM profiles but Apple doesn't respect your profile in the first place. Third-parties have no obligation to show you their traffic either, and many don't.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#125

Post by throwaway290 »

smoldesu wrote: post #124
throwaway290 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like dangerous disinfo. Your ISP or DNS cannot decrypt your HTTPS traffic. But someone who slips in a custom CA cert maybe can. That's the point.

That's the point, indeed. Your ISP and DNS can technically intercept your traffic, but it's pointless since TLS exists. Similarly, you can Wireshark an iPhone using MDM profiles but Apple doesn't respect your profile in the first place. Third-parties have no obligation to show you their traffic either, and many don't.

You are saying a regular app on non jailbroken ios can choose to bypass the profile & custom CA when working with TLS?

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#126

Post by tharne »

freedomben wrote: post #109
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #92

After Gemini's embarrassing "woke images" debacle last month, probably a lot of people wouldn't want it on their phones, nor on their desktops/laptops. Until Gemini is cleaned up and all the political biases removed, it's a tainted product, at least among a lot of vocal influencers, if not the masses.

I don't know anybody not in the tech world who even knows about that, let alone would care enough to change their platform. My guess is pretty much all average consumers, and 80% of technical consumers, don't care at best and actively applaud Gemini at worst. I doubt this is a problem at all

>I don't know anybody not in the tech world who even knows about that

There's a headline about it right on the landing page of today's NYPost, so by now quite a few folks know about it.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#127

Post by smoldesu »

throwaway290 wrote: post #125
smoldesu wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the point, indeed. Your ISP and DNS can technically intercept your traffic, but it's pointless since TLS exists. Similarly, you can Wireshark an iPhone using MDM profiles but Apple doesn't respect your profile in the first place. Third-parties have no obligation to show you their traffic either, and many don't.

You are saying a regular app on non jailbroken ios can choose to bypass the profile & custom CA when working with TLS?

They don't need to. I'm not sure if you're aware, but it's actually possible to encrypt traffic using things other than TLS. A regular app on non-jailbroken iOS can completely circumvent TLS decryption. First-party Apple Apps will bypass your profile and custom CA.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#128

Post by throwaway290 »

smoldesu wrote: post #127
throwaway290 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are saying a regular app on non jailbroken ios can choose to bypass the profile & custom CA when working with TLS?

They don't need to. I'm not sure if you're aware, but it's actually possible to encrypt traffic using things other than TLS. A regular app on non-jailbroken iOS can completely circumvent TLS decryption. First-party Apple Apps will bypass your profile and custom CA.

Ah. You are saying they would encrypt on top. Sounds inefficient but I guess reasonable if you think about people like Kazakh government or Korean institutions requiring everyone to add a CA just to live a life. So without extra encryption they could snoop on that too. We can't have nice things...

(It's still possible to compare how much a blank device phones home but perhaps we wouldn't know all the details of what it talks about)

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#129

Post by smoldesu »

throwaway290 wrote: post #128
smoldesu wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't need to. I'm not sure if you're aware, but it's actually possible to encrypt traffic using things other than TLS. A regular app on non-jailbroken iOS can completely circumvent TLS decryption. First-party Apple Apps will bypass your profile and custom CA.

Ah. You are saying they would encrypt on top. Sounds inefficient but I guess reasonable if you think about people like Kazakh government or Korean institutions requiring everyone to add a CA just to live a life. So without extra encryption they could snoop on that too. We can't have nice things... (It's still possible to compare how much a blank device phones home but perhaps we wouldn't know all the details of what…

> So without extra encryption they could snoop on that too.

This is basically the crux of your argument. I mostly agree with you - neither Apple nor Google do enough to protect user traffic in the big-picture. You can Wireshark a lot of data off both OSes, the throughput is even scarier when you track radio emissions.

That being said, a lot of people have taken notes from Apple's "protect user privacy" shtick. Many logging libraries contain the app-equivalent of screen-recording baked in to the app framework, enabling a pipeline where PII gets ingested as a part of the logging process. Startups that incorporate these processes then brag about their self-imposed security compliance as a result of their own ass-backwards philosophy. And these aren't even the bad guys!

Companies like TikTok and Facebook collect lord knows how much information, and use the same "security" tautology as their scrappy startup peers. They consciously stretch the limits of their API capabilities, and then turn around and make puppy-eyes whenever regulators act concerned. Meanwhile, the actual users of these smartphones aren't empowered to regulate their own device's security. They can't turn off their phone because the modem is still on. They can't firewall Facebook analytics when the app is closed. They can't even stop their notifications from being snooped on without disabling the feature altogether. Where's Apple or Google when that's under scrutiny?

It's a bit tangential, but this is why I think Apple made an enormous mistake attempting to commodity privacy. Privacy is idealistic - there will always be perennial exploits on the iPhone to prove them wrong. Because Apple commits to imperfect, conditional privacy, scummier-and-scummier companies can follow their imperfect lead and make the same claims. And because none of them are as big as Apple, they rarely take flak when their systems fail. Apple's attempts to market security is like watching a leading F1 driver start turning into a tailspin, and taking the rest of the racers with them in a firey crash.

Re: Apple Is in Talks to Let Google's Gemini Power iPhone Generative AI Features

#130

Post by throwaway290 »

smoldesu wrote: post #129
throwaway290 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah. You are saying they would encrypt on top. Sounds inefficient but I guess reasonable if you think about people like Kazakh government or Korean institutions requiring everyone to add a CA just to live a life. So without extra encryption they could snoop on that too. We can't have nice things... (It's still possible to compare how much a blank device phones home but perhaps we wouldn't know all the details of what…

> So without extra encryption they could snoop on that too. This is basically the crux of your argument. I mostly agree with you - neither Apple nor Google do enough to protect user traffic in the big-picture. You can Wireshark a lot of data off both OSes, the throughput is even scarier when you track radio emissions. That being said, a lot of people have taken notes from Apple's "protect user privacy" shtick. Many l…

I'm not sure marketing privacy is the same as commodifying it, if anything commodifying something makes it less marketable...

Most marketing hinges on non commodities, take coca-cola for example, it's sugar water with a bit of caffeine, if they marketed that they'd be nothing, all of their marketing is about other stuff, intangibles

Kind of like Netflix's proverbial "chill"

Comparatively I'd say privacy is among better things to market

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