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Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

calbryant.uk

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Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#121

Post by crest »

dvdkon wrote: post #63

It's surprising that there are no PC fan controllers that would use some variant of PID control with a temperature target. Traditional fan curves are simple, but the result isn't very intuitive. And many desktop motherboards manage to screw up even the basic fan curve, offering users control of only two points within strict bounds, no piecewise linear curves or hysteresis settings. I started a fan controller project…

IIRC because tuning PID controllers for vastly different heating and cooling rates isn't that easy. A CPU can ramp up/down a lot quicker than the cooling system could or should even attempt to react. It's easy to end up with a oscillations the common temperature vs. speed curves (maybe with a hysteresis range) is already annoying enough to tune. Good luck having users come up with good PID terms for their individual combination of parts (CPU, thermal interface, mainboard, case, fans, pump, radiator, etc.).

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#122

Post by segmondy »

dvdkon wrote: post #63

It's surprising that there are no PC fan controllers that would use some variant of PID control with a temperature target. Traditional fan curves are simple, but the result isn't very intuitive. And many desktop motherboards manage to screw up even the basic fan curve, offering users control of only two points within strict bounds, no piecewise linear curves or hysteresis settings. I started a fan controller project…

I use this - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07LBLWYZF

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#123

Post by Joker_vD »

mr_tombuben wrote: post #99
Aurornis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PID control isn’t an easy solution in PC cooling. CPU temperatures can swing from 40C to 90C and back in a matter of seconds as loads come and go. Modern fan control algorithms have delays and smoothing for this reason. If you had a steady state load so stable that you could tune around it, setting a fan curve is rather easy and PID is overkill. For normal use where you’re going between idle with the occasional spike…

Wouldn't the better solution be to rely on the heatsink temperature instead of on the chip/core temperature then? I mean in the end, the air from the fan is cooling the heat sink, not the chip directly.

Why would it be better? In the end, you would like your CPU to stay (at most) at, say, 40 degrees, not your heat sink — that thing can be at 35 if it needs to.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#124

Post by whywhywhywhy »

>I presume the quick temperature rises are specific to modern Ryzen CPUs, perhaps others too. Maybe this is due to more accurate sensors, or even a less-than-ideal thermal interface.

It’s because the cpu is designed to push itself to a thermal limit and have its output performance decided by how you keep it at that limit so it essentially goes full throttle to 90deg then slows down if your cooling can’t keep up which causes the fan spikes.

So I’m told from the research I did.

My latest machine had the same issue but just updating all drivers, setting some auto curves and adding easing for the fan spin up time completely solved it.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#125

Post by whywhywhywhy »

guappa wrote: post #97
lostlogin wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fans are annoying enough when at a steady speed, but a fan that is continually changing speed sounds extra irritating if it’s in the same room. Some sort of smoothing plus a conservative base rate might be more tolerable.

> a conservative base rate Do you use windows? I find that with windows the fan is always spinning, even if at low speed. While with linux most of the times it is not spinning at all.

In windows my CPU fan is always spinning although silently in my experience but my case fans spin down.

ASUS motherboard Noctua fans if that makes a difference.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#126

Post by ltbarcly3 »

_cenw wrote: post #106
ltbarcly3 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes?

Because OP uses a (mid-sized, but large by most standards) AIO with two Noctua redux PF-12 1700 PWM's. So... your recommendation is the article.

Did you read my comment? I said buy a large AIO and then don’t do the rest of the article and then it actually is quiet with no effort. Large.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#127

Post by jtriangle »

willis936 wrote: post #71
jtriangle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to use as little paste as possible while fully covering the heat spreader. Most modern coolers will provide sufficient pressure to spread a pea sized amount of thermal paste to cover the whole cooler. There are also thermal pads, both reusable and single use, that perfom well and don't require any guesswork. If you want to paste, noctua has the best paste in terms of thermal resistance, but mx4 or mx5 both p…

>You want to use as little paste as possible while fully covering the heat spreader. The data disagrees. Too much paste is fine; too little is not. https://youtu.be/EUWVVTY63hc

Yes, but that's not what I said. Too much paste makes a mess, too little makes, well, a different mess. A pea sized amount is plenty, being that a pea is fairly large.

Personally, I do an X if I'm not lapping, but that is more complex and a dot works just fine for most things.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#128

Post by pstrateman »

dvdkon wrote: post #120
Aurornis wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PID control isn’t an easy solution in PC cooling. CPU temperatures can swing from 40C to 90C and back in a matter of seconds as loads come and go. Modern fan control algorithms have delays and smoothing for this reason. If you had a steady state load so stable that you could tune around it, setting a fan curve is rather easy and PID is overkill. For normal use where you’re going between idle with the occasional spike…

I think the thermal mass of typical desktop coolers is large enough that a smoothly tuned PID controller would fare well, without hindering performance or annoying the ueer. I suppose the best way would be to try, but my current computers have no (or very unstable) interfaces for fan control.

Modern CPU coolers are basically heat pipes connected to a radiator.

They have very little thermal mass and if too much energy is in them the liquid all evaporates.

When the liquid evaporates their performance falls off a cliff.

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#129

Post by bdcs »

fbdab103 wrote: post #79
Aurornis wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve tried Eco mode on AMD parts before. The performance drop was a lot more than 5% for heavily multithreaded workloads (compiling), but I could see it being negligible for certain single threaded workloads.

Interesting we have different reports. My experience was far more in line with parent's in that enabling ECO mode had In fact, chips have gotten so fast these days, I am seriously considering running my desktop on a laptop-class CPU. Should be able to run it near silently on air cooling alone with low power consumption.

I've been doing that with a Minisforum bd790i -- a Ryzen 7945HX which is a monster of a CPU (16 zen4 cores, with very high single threaded and multi threaded benchmarks[1]) with a paltry TDP. Minisforum even coined the term "Mobile on Desktop (MoDT)". It's a great platform that is utterly cheap for what you get (mobo w/ PCIe gen5 + CPU + heatsink for less than the price of an individual comparable CPU). Note: This CPU is usually in a laptop with a relatively underpowered cooling solution compared to the linked motherboard with a proper heatsink+fan. Hence the benchmarks have a very wide spread due to varying (usually laptop-based) cooling.

Pertinent to the conversation though, the BIOS is very much lacking, and supposedly software-based fan control is not implemented. That said, running the fans constantly at ~silent levels of rotation keeps the temps cool (you can even run the heatsink without a fan if you want).

[0] https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-bd770i?vari... [1] https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu-amd_ryzen_9_7945hx

Re: Better PC cooling with Python and Grafana

#130

Post by a_vanderbilt »

npteljes wrote: post #100
a_vanderbilt wrote: post #86

My problem is that I just don't want to think about it. Complex solutions are cool but ultimately it's bandwidth I could use for better things. I like my Chromebook because it requires nearly zero mental effort. I install the package and I use it. Ubuntu was great because you could Google it and get an answer that applies, and ChromeOS is great for the same reason. Linux could be as great as macOS, but it's the fragm…

>Linux could be as great as macOS, but it's the fragmentation that kills it. No, Linux is as valid technologically as the other offerings, fragmented or not. It's just that it doesn't have a mega-corp behind it to push, to make deals with businesses, schools, governments. As soon as Google stepped in with Android and ChromeOS, suddenly it was everywhere.

Android and ChromeOS just reinforce my point though. There is one Android™ and there is one ChromeOS™. I don't have to support Android with this package manager and another with that display server. I don't have to wonder what DE the Chromebook user has running, or whether they have a certain package installed that conflicts with mine. If those were concerns that had to be considered, would Android and ChromeOS have gotten as popular as they are? Food for thought.
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