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The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

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Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#121
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the paper: "[I]n-groups controlling abundance have increasingly chosen to produce non-necessary goods, rather than produce services to distribute necessary goods to regions with less abundance of necessary goods" This claim seems, to say the least, highly implausible given the amount of aid and charity that developed countries give to less developed countries. The chief obstacle to that aid having more of an eff…

I think you’re confusing my argument. I don’t suggest a solution I’m pointing out that the individual desire to increase personal happiness beyond basic needs for reproduction, significantly outweighs their desire to end that same extreme poverty condition for others. This might be a “duh” but the point is that my hypothesis is that this is a learned/taught perspective, and based on a foundational idea that is no lon…

We already have solutions. They are based around the principle of economic democracy.

It is a simple three step solution:

1. Identify sources of wealth that cannot be reproduced and therefore be hoarded to exclude access

2. Let the government tax or own the asset and grant every citizen equal rights to the asset in question.

3. Let people perform the act of producing reproducible assets on their own, now that they have the ability to do so.

Extreme hypothetical: AGI is real and everyone has a personal AGI. Given enough energy the AGI can produce anything in autarky. The primary resource that matters in this hypothetical economy is access to energy. Most people in today's society are born without any access to energy. Their access to energy is conditional upon performing labor, but labor is worthless in the hypothetical economy, therefore people without access to energy will simply die out.

There are many forms of economic democracy such as Freiwirtschaft or Georgism. These "economic systems" are built around the idea that non-reproducible assets should be taxed over time to prevent hoarding.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#122
post #66

Excited to answer any questions and happily surprised to see it on the front page. Thank you. I noted elsewhere that this is undergoing major revisions ahead of submissions to IJPS[1]. Riane Eisler read it and asked that I submit. I started working with a co-author a few months ago and he is a published anthropologist so my hope is to have a version done just focusing on the core claims this year. [1] https://pubs.li…

"[A]ccess to resources is determined strictly by how competent individuals are at acquiring and hoarding resources" This claim seems highly implausible to me as well. There is enough food in my house to feed its occupants for about a week. Is that "hoarding"? I have retirement savings put by so that I will be able to support myself once I stop working. Is that "hoarding"? What determines what you call "access to reso…

>So their people have no incentive to create any wealth through cooperation and trade, since they're not going to gain any benefit from it anyway. In other words, they know they will have no private property rights in what they produce, so they don't bother producing.

That sounds way too much like capitalism.

>What determines what you call "access to resources" (itself a misleading way to put it, IMO) in developed countries is trade. People trade goods or services they produce for money, which they then trade for things they need or want.

"Trade" only makes sense to the extent that human labor is in demand. When there is excess production, the resource already exists and there is no need for further labor. At that point the additional labor has devolved into a hazing ritual. A bullshit job, if you want to call it that. People get access to resources through earning money, therefore even if there are too many resources already, you must add onto this pile of excess resources, for the sake of the hazing ritual, which represents the payment of the entrance fee.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#123
post #61

Excited to answer any questions and happily surprised to see it on the front page. Thank you. I noted elsewhere that this is undergoing major revisions ahead of submissions to IJPS[1]. Riane Eisler read it and asked that I submit. I started working with a co-author a few months ago and he is a published anthropologist so my hope is to have a version done just focusing on the core claims this year. [1] https://pubs.li…

From the paper: "[I]n-groups controlling abundance have increasingly chosen to produce non-necessary goods, rather than produce services to distribute necessary goods to regions with less abundance of necessary goods" This claim seems, to say the least, highly implausible given the amount of aid and charity that developed countries give to less developed countries. The chief obstacle to that aid having more of an eff…

Developing countries receive aid for geopolitical reasons, not to actually help them out.

The IMF gives contradictory advice that doesn't help. China, Korea, Japan etc all ignored IMF advice and see where that got them.

>In other words, solutions to the scarcity problems you describe in less developed countries appear to me to be primarily political, not economic.

Uhm, that was the entire point of the paper. There is material abundance but no access. Also, you can project the hoarding behaviour onto the corrupt cronies so that objection doesn't go against the paper but is in support of it.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#124

So when I think “every important thing in my life is scarce”, that is just incorrect imagination? 11 billion people can live on a lake with perfect child and health care?

The paper mentions basic human needs like calories, potable water and shelter. What you are talking about goes way beyond biological needs.

This is the problem with partial abundance and the absolute definition of scarcity. Scarcity still exists even after you have a million yachts. You would have to be crazy to argue that scarcity doesn't exist, but absolute scarcity is meaningless in the face of humans with limited brain sizes.

We definitely have partial abundance. Please don't shut this discussion down because of imprecise language.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living on a lake is a prestige goal, not a requirement for existence. There is no meaningful scarcity at tier 1 of Maslow's hierarchy.

I don't see a point in striving for a society where most of the population is only meeting tier 1 needs. That's a human chicken farm, not a civilization.

This is your own interpretation you swapped "at least" into "at most" and are now arguing against the straw man you built.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#126
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"[A]ccess to resources is determined strictly by how competent individuals are at acquiring and hoarding resources" This claim seems highly implausible to me as well. There is enough food in my house to feed its occupants for about a week. Is that "hoarding"? I have retirement savings put by so that I will be able to support myself once I stop working. Is that "hoarding"? What determines what you call "access to reso…

>So their people have no incentive to create any wealth through cooperation and trade, since they're not going to gain any benefit from it anyway. In other words, they know they will have no private property rights in what they produce, so they don't bother producing. That sounds way too much like capitalism. >What determines what you call "access to resources" (itself a misleading way to put it, IMO) in developed co…

How can there be 'too many resources already'?

Even a single sci-fi fanatic, who genuinely desires a giant Star-Trek like spaceship, requires more 'resources' to satisfy their desire then the entirety of mankind has access to at the present moment.

Let alone the billions of people with more modest but still quite sizeable desires.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've got some bad news for you about corporations: they're not sentient - some human made the decision to prioritize profit over human lives. Governments and other institutions do this as well (not just for profit, but perhaps for other reasons) because they're also run by humans. It's going to be pretty hard to find a human institution that's morally pure in the way you want.

"Other human institutions cause harm, therefore it's okay for corporations to cause harm"? Really? I'm not trying to find a human institution that's pure, nor do I believe any other human institutions are pure. I'm trying to get people to a) stop believing that corporations are morally pure, and b) stop doing nothing about the fact that corporations aren't morally pure. EDIT: Let's not go the direction where you assu…

A 'corporation' is just a group of people who've signed a pile of contracts, sometimes all physically located in one jurisdiction, but often in multiple simultaneously.

So it doesn't seem likely anyone on HN ever genuinely thought they all groups of people are 'morally pure'. If they seemed like it they were probably just pulling your leg or trolling.

It's even less likely that anyone actually does 'nothing' when they encounter groups of suspicious people in real life, unless they are an extreme doormat.

Maybe try re-examining some of your assumptions about other HN users?

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those desires can be fulfilled in a myriad of ways more accessible to the average person than "living on a lake".

I will vote for the party that has a believable plan. So far, at least in Hamburg, Germany, I feel it is mostly a fight amongst many for the same, very scarce resources.

It seems like it's a different picture in the states. "The many" are in no way near able to afford/accomplish owning a house on a lake. This is reserved for the elite.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#129

Excited to answer any questions and happily surprised to see it on the front page. Thank you. I noted elsewhere that this is undergoing major revisions ahead of submissions to IJPS[1]. Riane Eisler read it and asked that I submit. I started working with a co-author a few months ago and he is a published anthropologist so my hope is to have a version done just focusing on the core claims this year. [1] https://pubs.li…

I see in your profile: Iraq war veteran. Why did you chose to fight in Iraq? (asking the question because it might reveal a better understanding of your thought process).

I chose to be at risk of fighting in Iraq (or wherever) by becoming and officer in the USAF. I did not choose Iraq specifically though, and had hoped I wouldn’t go, but the USAF decided that’s where they wanted to send me, so I went.

It was a bad time, nothing good came from it, and I missed the first 10 months of my first daughters life. Would not do again.

Re: The Myth of Scarcity and Its Threats to Human Society [pdf] (2023)

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re confusing my argument. I don’t suggest a solution I’m pointing out that the individual desire to increase personal happiness beyond basic needs for reproduction, significantly outweighs their desire to end that same extreme poverty condition for others. This might be a “duh” but the point is that my hypothesis is that this is a learned/taught perspective, and based on a foundational idea that is no lon…

We already have solutions. They are based around the principle of economic democracy. It is a simple three step solution: 1. Identify sources of wealth that cannot be reproduced and therefore be hoarded to exclude access 2. Let the government tax or own the asset and grant every citizen equal rights to the asset in question. 3. Let people perform the act of producing reproducible assets on their own, now that they ha…

I agree that something like Georgism is going to be required
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