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Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

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Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#121

Post by lenerdenator »

Gormo wrote: post #45
spamizbad wrote: post #8

UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). Instead, what we find is that UBI recipients either spend it on essentials, stuff for their kids children or paying down debt.

> UBI's critics expected these programs to have terrible outcomes, where recipients would spend their money on trivialities (or worse: drugs). The worst possible outcome is the intended one: where UBI recipients spend it on essentials, and society adapts over time such that a large swath of the population becomes dependent on state-issued subsidies for basic sustenance. This would create an entrenched concentration o…

The problem is, we already have that.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#122

Post by spiderfarmer »

mamonster wrote: post #98
spiderfarmer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think so?

> Moving towards an autocracy at a rapid pace Can be said for UK, France at least. Current UK prime minister is basically a guy who was parachuted in after the previous nominee was couped by her own party, France massively reformed the pension system last year by using a legal hack. Germany we'll see where it is in a year. > Large part of electorate to cheer it on When parties that are "far-right" (as labelled by mai…

I agree with you on most points. But none of the countries have a candidate that publicly admires is yearning to please dictators, who says that "presidency for life" sounds "pretty great" and who talks about political opponents as "enemies", who "have to be dealt with". The simple fact that another violent upheaval at the next election would surprise no one, is a dead giveaway that the USA is on a very dangerous trajectory.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/19/1220443867/trump-s-rhetoric-i...

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#123

Post by ceejayoz »

gameman144 wrote: post #72
ceejayoz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is. Just give it back if you don't want it. https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/public/gifts-to-government.h...

As a general rule, "if you don't like this rule we're adding, don't take advantage of it" is a pretty terrible argument. It's absolutely fair to say that a rule shouldn't be implemented while also acknowledging that if it is, it is the best strategy to take advantage of it if it is. For instance, imagine if the NFL decided to give up to two extra points after a touchdown for how stylishly the players celebrated, as v…

> This would be a terrible addition in most people's eyes.

Implementing UBI nationally in the US would almost certainly require a constitutional amendment, which is going to require overwhelmingly positive sentiment about it from the electorate.

Individuals remaining opposed at that point will have the same fiscal recourses they have to not liking NASA sending probes to Mars.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#124

Post by Workaccount2 »

bluecalm wrote: post #100
Workaccount2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly economic theoretical speaking, inflation wouldn't happen if the money isn't "new" money, but instead is fully reallocated money. A likely picture would be less money going into assets (where wealthy people money tends to end up) and more money going into consumables (where poor people money tends to end up). However the money pile should stay the same all else being equal.

Money supply has little to do with inflation. You can print like crazy and have about 0 inflation (a decade before Covid) or you can raise rates and have huge inflation. It's because inflation happens when supply of goods is limited. Covid messed up the supply chain -> inflation happened. Some printing may even lower prices because it allows production at scale to happen. If you just print and just helicopter money y…

>(a decade before Covid)

You are aware that the increase in money supply from 2020 to 2022 is about the same as the increase from 2010 to 2020, despite ~45% lower GDP growth?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WM2NS

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#125

Post by toomuchtodo »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #118
toomuchtodo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read it. Have they lowered prices? Or have they held them high because they can? https://www.ippr.org/media-office/revealed-how-powerful-comp... https://www.axios.com/2023/05/18/once-a-fringe-theory-greedf... ("In March, the chief economist at UBS Global Wealth Management, Paul Donovan, published a note on "profit margin-led inflation," describing how in late 2022 and into this year, companies — particularly r…

Why would they lower prices if the market easily bore the cost of those goods? Yeah of course corporations were racking in cash, so were consumers. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WFRBLN40059 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2REAL

So you admit that inflation is caused by corporations that can raise prices and keep them high? Because, in this thread, you've gone from "this narrative is/was entirely driven by click farming economically distressed people" to "of course they did this, they clearly can" as we've worked our way down to here from my top level comment.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#126

Post by spiderfarmer »

throwawa14223 wrote: post #117
spiderfarmer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's hear some arguments instead of ad hominems.

Do you consider "utopian" an ad hominem, but not "danger to democracy?"

It depends. Let's test this.

Presume 80% of the country wants to increase taxes for the rich and corporations, tax churches, have Universal Healthcare and a Universal Basic Income, reform your educational system, legalise abortion, make sexual education mandatory, legalise dreamers, have easier immigration and they all vote for a party who has detailed plans on how to finance and realise those ideals.

How do you react?

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#127

Post by mamonster »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #122
mamonster wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moving towards an autocracy at a rapid pace Can be said for UK, France at least. Current UK prime minister is basically a guy who was parachuted in after the previous nominee was couped by her own party, France massively reformed the pension system last year by using a legal hack. Germany we'll see where it is in a year. > Large part of electorate to cheer it on When parties that are "far-right" (as labelled by mai…

I agree with you on most points. But none of the countries have a candidate that publicly admires is yearning to please dictators, who says that "presidency for life" sounds "pretty great" and who talks about political opponents as "enemies", who "have to be dealt with". The simple fact that another violent upheaval at the next election would surprise no one, is a dead giveaway that the USA is on a very dangerous tra…

I understand your sentiment. I just don't think that thinking that we in Europe have it a lot better than the US simply because we did not yet get a person with Trump's BSing skills is very prudent, given that the directions that our systems are headed to seem to be very similar.

A politician with Trump's Reality Distortion Field is bound to arrive in Europe within the next decade or so, at which point it will be the same thing.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#128

Post by h2odragon »

boringg wrote: post #91
Brian_K_White wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like when wrong is made to seem tolerable by calling it merely messy. The world is of course actually messy and not b&w, but that fact doesn't change that. It's like saying that killing is wrong, but sometimes we still have to kill. Yes we do, and killing is still wrong. If you kill someone, it's not because "humans are messy". Oh humans are just imperfect and sometmes you just kill your neighbor, it just hap…

My point is the line 'no one stays clean in the beltway' is and very much greater than thou attitude. We all like to rip on k-street and politicos however I don't think tech is on some great white horse that we can speak down on everyone else.

I say "no one stays clean" from 20 years working with lobbyists I believed in and still sincerely think we did some good work.

The corrupting influence of DC can't be avoided. You swim in the cesspool with the gators, you come out covered in crap.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#129

Post by spiderfarmer »

mamonster wrote: post #127
spiderfarmer wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on most points. But none of the countries have a candidate that publicly admires is yearning to please dictators, who says that "presidency for life" sounds "pretty great" and who talks about political opponents as "enemies", who "have to be dealt with". The simple fact that another violent upheaval at the next election would surprise no one, is a dead giveaway that the USA is on a very dangerous tra…

I understand your sentiment. I just don't think that thinking that we in Europe have it a lot better than the US simply because we did not yet get a person with Trump's BSing skills is very prudent, given that the directions that our systems are headed to seem to be very similar. A politician with Trump's Reality Distortion Field is bound to arrive in Europe within the next decade or so, at which point it will be the…

So it's not the exact same thing. Yet.

Re: Billionaire-Fueled Lobbying Group Behind the State Bills to Ban UBI Experiments

#130

Post by tivert »

Gormo wrote: post #116
dragonwriter wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious as to where you are seeing unrestricted donations. SuperPACs, one of the main engines of US spending on politics.

"SuperPAC" is a loaded term used to refer to independent advocacy groups that spend money to publicize their own political positions; direct coordination or transfers of funds to any actual political campaign is prohibited to them, so referring to these as campaign donations is not really accurate.

Nevertheless, they coordinate:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/10-ways...

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