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Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

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Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#121
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Early days… 15 years later. To quote spaceballs, When exactly will “then” be “now”?

In 1980 packet switching had existed for 20 years already. The public Internet wouldn’t emerge for more than a decade after that—and it would take yet another 20 years for the true power of packet-switched networks to be realized, in the form of mobile Internet. In 2000 neural networks had existed for more than 50 years. More than 20 years later their full potential is finally being realized, and many would say it is…

Those comparisons are incredibly mismatched. In 1980 a computer cost as much as a car, and network connections were incredibly expensive and slow. Bill Gates, child of wealth and privilege, famously had to use a shared computer paid for by his elite school because even the child of an IBM board member wouldn’t have access to a computer! The microprocessor revolution unfolded in the 80s, however, so even your timeline is off by over a decade because people paid money to get online because things like email, telnet, Usenet, and FTP were immediately useful. By 1995, the web was already multiple years into extreme growth – very little of which was directly related to selling as opposed to all of the things you could do with it. Nobody was saying you should buy a modem and sit on it before reselling it at a profit, they were talking about all of the things you could do once you had one!

Similarly, nobody doubted that neural networks were capable of very interesting things - the holdup was the level of processing power needed to run them. As soon as that changes, useful applications abounded.

Those make quite the contrast with bitcoin which has been universally available to a much, much larger population and had truly massive resources available, but almost no meaningful impact because it doesn’t give most people anything new or better. The few businesses which aren’t trying to market it and still accept it almost universally convert BTC into real currency as soon as they receive it, companies like Western Union and Visa haven’t felt the need to lower rates, and to the extent that PayPal is reconsidering screwing everyone so aggressively it’s because of Venmo and Stripe, not Bitcoin.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#122
In which being your own bank continues to be undesirable.

(Never understood why ‘be your own bank’ was meant to be at all appealing. Being a bank is terrible. And still realistically less risky than this sort of thing; apart from truly bizarre edge cases (see the Citi/Revlon drama), this sort of thing simply can’t happen.)

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#123

In which being your own bank continues to be undesirable. (Never understood why ‘be your own bank’ was meant to be at all appealing. Being a bank is terrible. And still realistically less risky than this sort of thing; apart from truly bizarre edge cases (see the Citi/Revlon drama), this sort of thing simply can’t happen.)

Well, they have a lot of money, and if you're morally flexible, as anyone who's played the banker in a family game of Monopoly can tell you, you can just take some.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#124
post #34

This is scary and even a hardware wallet might not help. When I create a transaction with Electrum on my computer, I use a hardware wallet to sign the transaction. When I sign the transaction, the hardware wallet shows the amounts, and the output addresses. But if my copy of Electrum was backdoored and smart about what it did, it could use an output address for the remaining amount that went to another wallet. And si…

Reading this, it is bonkers to me that people think cryptocurrencies are ready or appropriate for mainstream use, either as a currency or as an investment. Line could go up, but if you aren’t extremely careful with processes that most people don’t and won’t comprehend—and don’t even realize are something you need to do—you can just straight up lose everything.

Yeah, it's definitely not ready. I agree with everything you are saying.

Though, the industry is aware of this and working on it. There is at least one company (Chia Network) where the on-chain language (ChiaLisp) is both capable and secure enough to allow for the sort of management needed to allow for self-custody to happen in a safe, sane manner. GUIs for this sort of thing aren't ready for the general public yet, but are definitely on the way.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#125
post #119
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US (and to some extent EU) have some protection, but for the rest of the world it's not much different than crypto. Do you have any citations to your survey of global consumer protection laws? Examples would be especially relevant if you know of cases where a bank granting access to a scammer left the victim with no recourse.

Beyond being an anecdotal point myself, you do read other people's experience online. I don't have concrete statistics; however, I do know that even big institutions get scammed with no recovery (ie: I recall the Bangladeshi central bank being swindled for tens of millions of dollars because of SWIFT and not being able to recover that money. If the Central Bank of a nation doesn't have a recourse for such an amount,…

This is a great example: most of the fraudulent transactions were blocked by the NY Federal Reserve – $850M – and of the remaining $101M, a significant amount was recovered:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Bank_robbery

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-57520169

Not perfect, but 90-something percent better than no recourse. More importantly, it’s also not a given that individuals lose everything as opposed to higher operating costs for a bank. The kinds of crimes we see in the cryptocurrency world tend to leave individuals with no recourse other than very expensive private investigations, whereas a major financial institution at least had the resources to go after the money without going bankrupt.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#126
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this, it is bonkers to me that people think cryptocurrencies are ready or appropriate for mainstream use, either as a currency or as an investment. Line could go up, but if you aren’t extremely careful with processes that most people don’t and won’t comprehend—and don’t even realize are something you need to do—you can just straight up lose everything.

Yeah, it's definitely not ready. I agree with everything you are saying. Though, the industry is aware of this and working on it. There is at least one company (Chia Network) where the on-chain language (ChiaLisp) is both capable and secure enough to allow for the sort of management needed to allow for self-custody to happen in a safe, sane manner. GUIs for this sort of thing aren't ready for the general public yet,…

Solutions have been on the way for more than five years, but literally nothing has changed and all we've gotten is pyramid schemes and gambling. Chains and protocols have exploded in complexity and technical debt to the point where nobody fully understands the attack vectors. By now I am convinced that anything beyond pyramid schemes is never going to happen.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's definitely not ready. I agree with everything you are saying. Though, the industry is aware of this and working on it. There is at least one company (Chia Network) where the on-chain language (ChiaLisp) is both capable and secure enough to allow for the sort of management needed to allow for self-custody to happen in a safe, sane manner. GUIs for this sort of thing aren't ready for the general public yet,…

Solutions have been on the way for more than five years, but literally nothing has changed and all we've gotten is pyramid schemes and gambling. Chains and protocols have exploded in complexity and technical debt to the point where nobody fully understands the attack vectors. By now I am convinced that anything beyond pyramid schemes is never going to happen.

Do you also consider Bitcoin a pyramid scheme?

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solutions have been on the way for more than five years, but literally nothing has changed and all we've gotten is pyramid schemes and gambling. Chains and protocols have exploded in complexity and technical debt to the point where nobody fully understands the attack vectors. By now I am convinced that anything beyond pyramid schemes is never going to happen.

Do you also consider Bitcoin a pyramid scheme?

No, I don't. But Bitcoin also isn't particularly interesting because it's not (very) programmable and not useful for mainstream use anyway. I don't consider Ethereum itself a pyramid scheme, just useless. The protocols on top of these chains though, nearly all pyramid schemes. The best way to describe Ethereum is that it provides a platform for pyramid schemes.

Re: Exodus Bitcoin Wallet: $490k swindle

#130
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting I didn’t know that, I’ll have to learn more. I had heard about stuff like that in N. Korea but not Cambodia.

It's time to taste what you most fear

Not sure what this means, can you elaborate?
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