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Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#121

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. This is not true at all. Netflix customers are Netflix customers, not Apple; the same goes for Amazon Kindle, Spotify, etc. Netflix literally cannot include a link to netflix.com in their app, otherwi…

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#122

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

I think there's a lot of nuance in this situation.

First: the most vocal developers really do not care about Apple's "ecosystem invented out of thin air". They just need to be where their customers are, wherever their customers are. The Spotify's, the Google's, the Netflix's, etc. The users who leverage the iPhone to access their Spotify subscription are Spotify customers, not only Apple customers. My relationship with Spotify pre-dates my relationship with Apple. I signed up for Paramount Plus due to a Superbowl Ad, not due to some contorted funnel which Apple, believing themselves to be the center of the universe, have inserted themselves into.

If I could download these applications directly from the suppliers: I would. And, in fact, I do so, on Windows, on Linux, and even on Apple's own MacOS.

The cognitive dissonance I can't reconcile among advocates for Apple's side is: simultaneously saying "Apple built this ecosystem, they deserve to tax it however they will" and "If you don't like it just go to Android". Ignoring the obvious problem that a duopoly is only marginally better than a monopoly: one of these has to be a weird argument, right? Either the ecosystems are not so-fungible as to be interchangeable for the purposes of marketplace competition; or, what Apple created isn't unique, it is fungible, and they shouldn't get as much credit as they have.

I trend toward the latter; I don't believe what Apple has created is all that special. I think their App Review does vanishingly little to improve the functional security of their end-users. Their software technology is almost universally crappy, especially when speaking on anything developers have to interface with. The next few years will prove even their hardware to be un-special, if it isn't already. They've built what they've built on the shoulders of giants. AT&T built a nationwide fiber network "out of thin air". Verizon built a nationwide 5G UWB network "out of thin air". TSMC builds state-of-the-art chips "out of thin air". The open source community built FreeBSD "out of thin air". Slack and Spotify built their application experiences "out of thin air". If even one of these entities didn't exist, or made the decision to stop dealing with Apple's unique ecosystem, Apple would face an existential risk. If Slack wasn't on the iPhone: I wouldn't buy an iPhone. If iPhones did not work with Verizon: I would not buy an iPhone. The list goes on.

Just think on that for a second: should AT&T have the right to say "our fiber backbone won't carry traffic generated by iPhone endpoint devices"? "Ultimately Apple is gaining unfairly access to our customers". "They represent a security threat to our customers". That would be insane! If its even possible, it would literally overnight destroy Apple as a company. So then it becomes, where do you draw the line? Why is it "obviously not ok" for AT&T to do that to Apple, but "eh its complicated" for Apple to do that to Epic Games?

Your argument is that this is an Ayn Randian situation where Apple put in the work to win over these customers, and now devs want a free lunch. I get that. My argument is: Apple would not exist today without the giants shoulders they stand on, Spotify (as an example) is a material reason why they're so successful, to whatever degree, and their insolence in admitting this isn't just morally wrong; its psychotically egotistical. This is, generally, the argument against all Ayn Randian philosophy; its not new ground, this is why Ayn Rand isn't really respected as an philosopher, and why her arguments also don't work in Apple's case.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#123

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

> You can't legislate that someone lose more money than they gain with access to your market. What? Of course they can. That someone will then just leave the market, or maybe change their product more. But there is absolutely no reason why they can't.

Yeah, I meant that to be the implication of the sentence, at some point folks take their ball and go home, and we have to see weeks of trending hashtags about the injustice done to Europe

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#124
post #109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Unless I am misreading somehow, this is an unusual position. Software developers don't sell their software to Apple. They sell to the end users. Unless an intermediary rebrands the software and takes ownership of customer acquisition and support, software users are the customers of the software dev…

> software users are the customers of the software developers Yes, but the users are also customers of the owner of the software platform that the developers are developing for. And the owner of the platform gets to set the platform's rules. Microsoft's standard practice for many years was to watch for which third party Windows applications were becoming popular, and build those features into one of their own product…

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#125
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only has a very specific meaning in software. To consumers Apple's App store is trusted.

I wonder what you would happen if you really probed a "consumer" about what they mean by trusted.

I can guarantee you they aren't going to mention code audits.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#126

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

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Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#127
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are companies besides Apple that developers trust, so your argument is invalid. Apple equals Apple, not trust.

This isn't about developers, it's about Apple customers. to them iPhone = Apple, not developers

This is definitely about developers.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on! It's not scareware! You have to admit these alternative app stores are going to be massively adopted by scammers and grifters (not saying all of the companies that will use these app stores are scammers, but all the scammers and grifters will use them). Actual real human beings are having their lives turned upside down by things like this every fucking day. Can you try to have a little bit of compassion for…

This is not a real issue on Android, where this has been the status quo forever. Are there any reasons it would be different here or is it just FUD after all?

> This is not a real issue on Android

What!? Yes it is. I've seen it first hand on numerous kids phones, that "have a bad battery" or "stopped working".

Turns out downloading unlimited arbitrary binaries from in-app/in-youtube advertisements leads to a functionally bricked phone. I assume adults are too embarrassed, don't want to hand their phone over to someone and just buy a new one.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#129
post #98

This is a complicated issue. On the one hand, I tend to have a generally unfavorable view of apple. I don't like closed systems, oversimplified to the point of missing critical settings UX, etc. That said, I really don't understand the issue with their cut, or insisting on handling payments. In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. If the…

>In the vast majority of cases, these are not your customers. These are apple's customers they have given you access to. Unless I am misreading somehow, this is an unusual position. Software developers don't sell their software to Apple. They sell to the end users. Unless an intermediary rebrands the software and takes ownership of customer acquisition and support, software users are the customers of the software dev…

Suppose an author uploads their book to ExamplePrint Inc, a one stop shop that prints made-to-order books for customers.

The reader goes to ExamplePrint and buys the book.

ExamplePrint prints a softcover copy of the book on the spot and ships it out to the reader.

The user pays ExamplePrint, who pays the author some fraction of the user's money.

The reader is a customer of ExamplePrint and reading the author's book.

This is the analogy Apple would like to use for their app store. Apple's print time is almost instantaneous and the marginal costs are closer to zero.

Re: Developers revolt over Apple's new app store rules

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An open iPhone compatible is probably the answer here.

Why would anyone downvote this? Would love an explanation. Why not let Apple keep building their wall higher and higher but also let other's emulate and create interoperable alternatives. The best of all worlds.

Another explanation is that it's too radical of an idea even for HN. I see no reason a judge in a hypothetical anti-trust case against Apple couldn't give it a choice between ceasing operations and open sourcing its whole technology stack.
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