Want good programmers? Then pay them. • Hacker News Board

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#121

Post by henrikschroder » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:30 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #103

dasil003 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're pretty jaded. And believe me I've been through all of this as well. I've been underpaid and overworked for sure. But put things in perspective. Being a skilled programmer is one of safest careers you could have in these days of cold economic downturn. Instead of worrying about being downsized, realize that even a company in the red can afford to hire you to automate processes which currently require paid emplo…

>>Being a skilled programmer is one of safest careers you could have in these days of cold economic downturn. This is temporary luck, which will probably be different in the next downturn. (Just consider the IT death, ten years ago.)

The only thing I saw happening at that time was that even though a lot of companies disappeared, all the good developers found new or kept their jobs, but all the crap developers lost their jobs.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#122

Post by SatvikBeri » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

patrickyeon wrote: post #114

SatvikBeri wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does one put a value on the savings experienced devs bring to a company, in terms of simply not making bone-headed decisions which cost a lot to fix later on? This is not saying I'm perfect - of course I'd make some mistakes. But mine would be harder to detect ;) Learning how to translate your value as a developer into dollars is an extremely useful skill that will help you gain a lot of respect and earn more.…

#3 is the center of patio11's usual advice for programmers who want to make more money[0]. It boils down to "find a part of the company that is making money, go there, and show them how your contribution helped make more money." [0] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro...

The one thing I would add is you don't need to be in a profit center of the company, though it helps. Even administrative roles have a lot of ways to contribute to the bottom line (the $3MM example I gave was in a reporting department!)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#123

Post by balajiviswanath » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:34 PM UTC

As a programmer, I love the fact that the demand is outpacing supply. But, I also have this weird feeling that we are back in 1999. Back then, even crappy programmers commanded 6 figure salaries. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#124

Post by Mikushi » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:35 PM UTC

josephcooney wrote: post #98

"we're having trouble finding people" is a familiar refrain from people looking to hire developers. if you're having trouble finding people you are, by definition, not paying enough.

Or there is a shortage of developers in your area.

My previous company was offering competitive salaries, good environment, challenging work, and we had trouble filling position with decent developers...

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#125

Post by waterlesscloud » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:37 PM UTC

Mikushi wrote: post #124

josephcooney wrote: post #98

"we're having trouble finding people" is a familiar refrain from people looking to hire developers. if you're having trouble finding people you are, by definition, not paying enough.

Or there is a shortage of developers in your area. My previous company was offering competitive salaries, good environment, challenging work, and we had trouble filling position with decent developers...

Raise salaries and attract developers from outside your area.

The problem was that you weren't actually offering "competitive" salaries, you were merely offering what may have been standard for your area but no longer was sufficient, by your own report.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#126

Post by moocow01 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:38 PM UTC

Wilya wrote: post #40

coenhyde wrote: post #24

Remember the USA has had 50 years of Silicon Valley. The rest of the world is playing catchup. While developers may understand the what creates a successful software product/company, the businesses adopting software development have no idea what they are doing. There isn't the 50 years of collective physique at play. They haven't seen software giants rise and fall. And they haven't been exposed to the inputs that cre…

To be honest, the US companies probably have also more money to throw at the problem than those of any other country. Everytime I see someone speak about the absurdly high salaries around Silicon Valley and saying that they are too low, I cringe a bit inside.

Honestly I more cringe when I realize my coworkers in Texas only make 10k less than me and the cost of living is 2 times less.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#127

Post by DominikR » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:38 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #109

DominikR wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've been thinking about moving from Vienna to somewhere more competetive for some time (though its not about the money, I'm paid really well here - just about competition, which I happen to enjoy a lot), but the reasons for not doing it are some of the features you get when living in a more "socialist" (though I wouldn't call Austria socialist) country. Security, low crime rate, very few homeless people, drug…

Sure, I would probably earn more if I did the same job in San Francisco, but then I would have to deal with a much worse social situation, and I would have to be more cautious. Does the crime rate actually differ much between SF and Vienna? A quick google search provides very little info, but suggests there is not much difference. I haven't been to SF lately, but crime is a negligible issue in NYC. Though SF may be a…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_r...

San Francisco has more homicides with its population of ~800k than all of Austria combined with a population of 8,5 million.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#128

Post by theorique » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:39 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Sometimes, though, the "cute little puzzles" are useful in order to filter out the clowns who interview well but can't write FizzBuzz.

It's a bit of a tall (impossible?) order for a programmer - regardless of skill or experience - to expect to interview without going through some serious technical conversations and writing some code to solve problems.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#129

Post by xutopia » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:41 PM UTC

manuletroll wrote: post #11

I'd be very happy to make 2200€. I'm in France, and I'm paid barely above minimum wage. Granted, I don't have a very high level of college education, but even so, I made more when I had a job in a factory a few years ago. And the job market here doesn't seem to be that competitive, unfortunately.

I see plenty of French nationals move to Montreal for this same reason. They get a slightly higher salary but it goes a heck of a lot farther here.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#130

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 03, 2012, 1:42 PM UTC

theorique wrote: post #128

Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

Sometimes, though, the "cute little puzzles" are useful in order to filter out the clowns who interview well but can't write FizzBuzz. It's a bit of a tall (impossible?) order for a programmer - regardless of skill or experience - to expect to interview without going through some serious technical conversations and writing some code to solve problems.

Technical interview is OK, ask the guy about his job. Give him a coding problem in his language of expertise. Check his knowledge of tools, techniques and best practices in his area of expertise. Do all the tech routine.

But please don't go on and on with Math problems endlessly over weeks and months. Asking arcane and rare facts about stuff and then deciding his worth over his perceived inability to solve problems in math which don't have any connection with programming in the real world.