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EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

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Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#121

Post by SllX »

mattclarkdotnet wrote: post #102
apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

I’m all for a sound industrial policy, but comparing market cap to GDP isn’t helpful. Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG.

> Better to compare corporate revenue which is typically 5% or less of market cap for FAANG.

I wouldn’t even bother with that much. You’re comparing international corporations’ reported revenue with one measure of one country’s general economy. I know a lot of us here are from countries that are either really really big or really really rich or both, but most countries are not really really big or really really rich. The only thing reported revenue, GDP, and market cap have in common is a unit you can denominate them in, but GDP as measured in dollars or euros or whatever still isn’t money in the bank (and neither is market cap).

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#122

Post by ouroborosidiots »

izacus wrote: post #94
ouroborosidiots wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> driving up the cost of living for locals. That means they are spending a lot of money they earn on the local economy itself no? So even if their taxes are higher, if they are creating value in the economy, the locals do end up seeing those benefits imo. From the perspective of a someone in country that loses a lot of talented/educated citizens to brain drain, If i were in charge of a country to which high skilled i…

What kind of money are they spending? Besides money directly transferred to wealth land owners via rents, some service owners, the rest goes back to savings to be spend after leaving the country. How are most netherlanders actually benefiting here?

Land owners do end up paying tax on all the money they earn no? And if people are living in a country, they still tend to spend at least 50-60% of it in the local economy itself. (Anecdotal numbers based on expat friends' spending there).

So the expats spend their home country resources for 20-25 years to get educated and be qualified enough to leave it and contribute to a different country's economy, taxes. Now the host country didn't spend any of it's resources in it's education, nor will it contribute to their healthcare - which typically becomes a burden only once they are older, by when they'd have left the country. Still seems like a net positive to me. Just can't put a number on it though. (wrt the 30% tax benefit).

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#123

Post by apexalpha »

seper8 wrote: post #118
apexalpha wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also m…

>There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?

>Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?

I would think this would all happen the same way it would happen if we lured the companies here with €30 billion.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#124

Post by throwaway78955 »

jacquesm wrote: post #22
yurishimo wrote: post #13

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been…

Go for it. They're cutting edge and a good employer too.

Throwaway because this is a touchy subject, but if you've worked/contracted/supplied for ASML the consensus is pretty much: cutting edge on the hardware end of things, hopelessly behind in the software department.

So great if you're a physics PhD, but if you're going in there as a software engineer thinking you'll be working with the latest and greatest, you'll be in for a shock. Not to mention that it's a huge ship that's very difficult to turn around in terms of introducing new technologies or paradigms. It's classic BigCorp politics all the way through.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#125

Post by sofixa »

chucke1992 wrote: post #93
yurishimo wrote: post #13

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been…

Nah, I don't see Europe producing their own silicon valley - EU has over-regulated and a fragmented market. Too many regulations lead to less enterprises, while fragmentation (Germany, France, etc. with their own regulations + language barriers) prevents companies from growing big in their home soil. Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. I presume, they have less regulation…

> I presume, they have less regulations in place

Why would you presume that? Working back from wrong assumptions and biases is never a good idea.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#126

Post by throw_pm23 »

chucke1992 wrote: post #93
yurishimo wrote: post #13

As a knowledge worker who immigrated to the Netherlands in 2022 and also lives in Eindhoven, these insights and discussions are super interesting to me. Unlike most of my nearby expat peers, I didn't move here to work at ASML or Philips, but now that I'm here, it's undeniable; the appeal of working for such companies is huge. Obviously, companies want to make money, but the goals of the government have somewhat been…

Nah, I don't see Europe producing their own silicon valley - EU has over-regulated and a fragmented market. Too many regulations lead to less enterprises, while fragmentation (Germany, France, etc. with their own regulations + language barriers) prevents companies from growing big in their home soil. Anecdotally, I feel like Sweden produces more startups that grow large worldwide. I presume, they have less regulation…

There is an easy way to (statistically) double the amount of successful startups in Europe by almost any metric: include Israel in the count.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#127

Post by londons_explore »

seper8 wrote: post #118
apexalpha wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They wouldn't have to put all their fabs here. But if they want the latest ASML machines they need to have at least one big fab inside the EU, or else they only get one generation back. There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. You could even invite the Chinese to put their fabs in the EU so that they get a chip sector they control but also m…

>There's only a handful of companies in the world producing chips at scale, so it wouldn't be too out of the question. Don't think you have any idea how complex it is to both set up the fabs and run them. Are you gonna fly half of Taiwan to run these fabs here? How long do you think this process is going to take?

Nearly all chip making machines are computer controlled. The operators could easily operate them remotely from Taiwan.

Data centers already work that way - the economic value of the physical building is quite small because all the actual moneymaking can be done by an office full of software engineers in san Fransisco.

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#128

Post by davedx »

apexalpha wrote: post #90

The EU is simply too scared to actually put it's foot down. If they really want to, they can just limit the export of ASML machines only to companies that have at least one of their fabs here in the EU. But they won't. In stead they will just handover €30 billion of public money to multinational corporations with market caps larger than the yearly GDP of some EU countries. Edit: For clarity, I'm not suggesting bannin…

The US has already done that. They leaned on the Dutch government to get ASML to reduce exports to China

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#129

Post by davedx »

throwaway4good wrote: post #11

All the big blocks: EU, US, South Korea, Taiwan, and China assume that their subsidy policies will expand their market share. Obviously they cannot all be right. The only that I think is given that will expand its global market share is China. Paradoxically because of the US sanctions and the fact that it relies so much on imports presently.

Saying something is a "given", without providing any evidence, is a pretty silly argument

Re: EU chip goal 'unrealistic' says ASML CEO

#130

Post by p_l »

jimnotgym wrote: post #50
IshKebab wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I've worked in a couple of startups in the UK now that I was surprised to discover got most of their funding from the EU. E.g. Ultrahaptics (which was an obviously flawed idea) got most money from Horizon 2020, not customers. Kind of weird that these wastes of money are never in the news, not even during Brexit.

Are they a waste of money? Did they stimulate the startup economy, upskill workers, etc? Were there no spin offs? Nobody learnt anything?

Or simply provided employment to people who then paid for other things in the economy.
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