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Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

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121–130 of 404 posts

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#121

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

Another cool perspective is that simple organisms evolved to coordinate with each other to build complex organisms that could protect the simple organisms in hostile environments they might not / would take longer to explore. Think about all the gut bacteria that survives in humanity during reproduction and viruses and bacteria that invade and hitch rides. You can view humans as the life form or you can view the bact…

I think that is a far more fun way of looking at it!

But the bacteria aren't the whole story - we also have our own cells, all doing their thing and all participating (even if bacteria in us are -also- participating). We're just groups of trillions of cells all working together to keep themselves alive and reproducing.

And then we go work together with other blobs of trillions of cells, just to further that goal: survival of the cells.

These groups of cells that started working together many, many billions of generations ago, are now looking at space exploration, colonising other planets, and wondering if there are other big groups of cells on other planets.

There's no way they'd have gotten there if they'd kept living alone as single-celled organisms.

That's fun to think about.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#122
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly what's being—albeit atypically—advocated for here: That even steaks are a naturally occurring byproduct of humans and cows because humans and cows naturally exist.

Sure, but then of course absolutely everything is "naturally occurring". Plastic is a naturally occurring substance, computers are naturally occurring objects, C++ is a natural language. Perhaps then only miracles from God (for those who believe in such things) are unnatural?

Now you're getting it.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#123
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but then of course absolutely everything is "naturally occurring". Plastic is a naturally occurring substance, computers are naturally occurring objects, C++ is a natural language. Perhaps then only miracles from God (for those who believe in such things) are unnatural?

Now you're getting it.

I am, but this is just not what those words mean, to anyone.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#124

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

> It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up.

A lot of lifeforms evolve to be more simple, not more complex -- I think what you have is sort of a distribution of complexity, and as life continues to evolve, the upper bound keeps getting pushed up as some organisms push the boundary of complexity, but I don't think it's at all true that in general life involves to be more complex.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#125
post #94
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there already a theory for life->greater complexity similar to that of entropy in physics? It seems just as inexorable.

The theory is that they are one in the same, or better to say that entropy is the process that drives life. In that, life grows in complexity in order to dissipate heat (i.e., increase entropy) more efficiently. Just look at Earth. Life is incredibly complex but is ultimately driving everything towards dust.

>life grows in complexity in order to dissipate heat

This seems silly on the level of the anthropic principle.

It's like claiming a calculator exists to use up electricity.

We're eddies in the flow of energy from high to low entropy because it's free energy.

We create more entropy in capturing energy than we capture because it's impossible not to.

There's no purpose for life there. It's just where life lives.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#126
post #89

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

Check out the work of Ilya Prigogine - he won a Nobel prize in the 70's for his work on self-organizing complexity. There is a selection force in the universe for increasing complexity, being driven by the dissipation of energy. When you have systems in non-equilibrium, there is a strong pressure to explore the possibility space to find ever more efficient ways to dissipate energy. A bacteria the size of a grain of s…

The Sun outputs 3.9 x 10^26W, but it weighs ~10^30kg, so that would mean 10^-4W/kg.

Human beings are closer to 1W/kg at rest.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#127

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

The maximum complexity increases, but the average complexity? Bacteria outnumber us.

It's more that it diffuses evenly rather than having a specific direction.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#128

It's fascinating to me that the complexity of life always goes up. Outside extinction events, complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time. It's interesting that (to my knowledge) we don't see an ecosystem lose complexity in its entirety unless it's dying. Simple organisms make a bedrock for complex organisms, and while the complex organisms have more specific needs, they are better at exploring,…

> complex life generally seems to become more favourable over time.

Talk more about this, as I'm not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion... it feels a bit like when people talk about evolution being in some way directed as opposed to just being.

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"unnatural" or "artificial" have a very clear meaning: made by the intervention of humans in ways outside our base anatomical functions (so excluding babys or spilled blood). This intervention can be mechanical (Stonehenge), or biological (breeding animals to become more useful to humans), or chemical (synthesizing oil from plastic), or a complex combination of all of them (whisky); it is also transitive: anything cr…

Nothing can be made or manufactured that is unnatural or artificial. By definition, anything that can exist in this universe is naturally part of the universe.

[deleted]

Re: Is the emergence of life an expected phase transition in the evolving universe?

#130

Seems like a common theme these days, to find some theory of math/physics to explain life/evolution/consciousness E/Acc -> Second law of thermodynamics leads to 'life' as way of increasing entropy. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-o... Constructor Theory -> A constructor is an entity that can cause the task to occur while retaining the ability to cause it again. - and Life is constructors. A…

It's almost teleological. Many people have ruled out God, but still want there to be purpose or direction.

Thats exactly what it is i think. Theyre unable to find meaning in the real world and need an equally mystical hand waivey narrative
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