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Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#121

Post by mnw21cam »

rickcecil wrote: post #32
zilti wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is CE the same as AD?

CE means “common era” which refers to the same time period that AD does, which stands for Anno Domini and means “the year of our lord,” which is rooted in the Christian faith. You will also see “BCE” and it means Before Common Era, which replaces BC, which means “Before Christ”. The newer terms are more inclusive.

I quite like Neil deGrasse Tyson's take on this. In science, we usually let the person that invented something name it. The Christian church invented the current calendar, therefore we should accept the name they gave it.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#122

Post by stabbles »

yreg wrote: post #98
stabbles wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly the overuse evolutionary biology. Obviously this ... seemingly useless feature must have been ... crucial to survival of this species. I guess Thomas Kuhn calls this ordinary science. Explanation within the framework. But it's incredibly dull

But in biology, any single feature is just a random mutation + not enough evolutionary pressure to weed it out. ('Crucial to survival' is a stretch.) How can the evolutionary explanation be overused? It literally applies in case of and explains any single feature, no?

The equivalent of "this behavior too can be explained by the laws of natural selection" in physics would be "this object too follows the laws of Newtonian mechanics".

Usually solving the paradox (something looks redundant, but must be useful in some way) requires some creativity, but ultimately it's always a rather boring confirmation of the theory.

The danger of normal science is that scientists turn "it can be explained by the theory" into "it must be explained by the theory".

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#123

Post by morelisp »

NL807 wrote: post #57
Loughla wrote: post #4

My favorite thing about archaeology is that if they have no idea whatever about the things they find. . . >were used for ritualistic or religious purposes Don't know what it is? Religion baby.

Or when they find dicks, drawn, sculpted, or otherwise: >it must be a fertility symbol The ancients didn't do dick jokes/humour apparently.

Lots of dick jokes are also fertility symbols / rituals today.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#124

Post by otteromkram »

anentropic wrote: post #22

A theory I saw recently suggested that they may have been used to hold candles, as night lights (could still have had some religious or ritual component too). The holes all being different diameters would then relate to different sized candles being needed to last all night, for longer and shorter nights at different times of the year. The twelve faces presumably corresponding to 12 months on the Julian calendar, whi…

I was reading a comment up about them being a masterpiece (eg - final exam project before graduating apprenticeship), but the geographic distribution made me think they could be hand warmers, bed warmers, or room warmers. Like, light something and "hang" it in the middle.

But, I like this theory, too, so it has my support.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#125

Post by jjtheblunt »

ragazzina wrote: post #105
mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

Why are they often found in coin hoards then? This makes no sense.

it could be coincidence, since people with metal detectors looking for coins find them. there could perhaps be more, but not where coin searching with metal detectors is common?

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#126

Post by garciansmith »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #109
INTPenis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think ancient roman society worked that way. Traveling is expensive first of all, carrying stuff if even more expensive. You carry what you need, not metal trinkets. And also your reputation is based mostly on word of mouth. That's how it still works in rural societies today. If there were any such certification for metalurgists it would have been a small one like a ring or a bracelet.

Ancient Roman society was not Medieval Europe, there was very little serfdom, especially among those with any skill whatsoever, so plenty of people moved from place to place, likely dozens or hundreds of times in their lives. There were plenty of captured slaves from conquered peoples, but skilled metalworkers would hardly belong to that group.

The vast majority of people would never have willingly traveled far from their birthplace, in medieval Europe or the Roman Empire. This is especially true for those who had few skills. You could do basic labor in your own village, but how could you leave without any money or support network (e.g., a family)? Why would people trust you elsewhere? The dynamic was probably different in larger cities, of which there were more in Roman times compared to the (at least early) medieval period though.

This had little to do with serfdom, and practices that would fit under what we might call serfdom were extremely varied from time and place. It would have been very rare for someone to have the means, ability, and desire to move far from their home yet couldn't because they were somehow legally bound to land owned by a lord (who only had power over that one area anyhow).

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#127

Post by bee_rider »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #100
Fluorescence wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I'm not convinced. The only geometry the knitting demonstrations justify is "pins around hole". I don't see an argument for the dodecahedron shape or the cast metal. A vastly cheaper wooden jig with nails would service just as well and offer much better ergonomic possibilities, like a handle. The knitting with the finger growing inside the dodec looks unhelpful and implausible.

Romans had mass production facilities for some things. Possibly gloves. So a durable permanent jig is not an unreasonable suggestion.

I think the objection is not about unnecessary durability, but unnecessary complexity; you don’t need so many faces to make a glove.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#128

Post by Towaway69 »

throwup238 wrote: post #114
ragazzina wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are they often found in coin hoards then? This makes no sense.

They’ve got a lot of sentimental value to the original owners of those hoards. It actually makes more sense: master blacksmiths were far more likely to be wealthy enough to have coin hoards and considered the objects symbolic of the trade that made that wealth.

Symbolic of their trade is for me also a good explanation. Something like a guild symbol hanging on the front of their workshop.

Or perhaps they were playing dungeons and dragons and needed these multiple faced dice ;)

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#129

Post by da_chicken »

bee_rider wrote: post #119
dejj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obvious: xkcd Voynich Manuscript. https://xkcd.com/593/

Of course, it is a joke, but… RPG books are generally written to be comprehensible to the people running the game. Or at least, that is the goal.

Clearly you've never played Shadowrun.

Re: Another Roman dodecahedron has been unearthed in England

#130

Post by subsubzero »

mrob wrote: post #10

I like the theory that it's an examination piece to qualify as a master metalworker. Casting a flawless dodecahedron could have been a way to demonstrate your skill. The shape is somewhat arbitrary: anything that's both difficult to cast and easy to examine for quality would work, but once people started making dodecahedrons that's what people expected and it became a kind of standard.

So basically its just leetcode interview testing but for metal workers :)
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