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Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

greenpeace.org

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Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#121

Post by kwhitefoot »

thendrill wrote: post #83
whatever1 wrote: post #45

Cool cool will the youth also return the money in their oil pension funds?

The pension fund money is not real and will never be seen by the population, it is all controlled by private hedge funds. Retirement age in Norway is 70... And there are some rumors about going to 72. Also there is talks of increasing taxes on the pensionsts... So what is the point of having a pensions fund if you are never going to retire...

There is no retirement age in Norway. You may start drawing your pension at the age of 62 (unless you haven't contributed enough) but you are not required or even expected to retire. The 70 year limit is the one beyond which your employer can force you to leave without cause.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#122

Post by tordrt »

dools wrote: post #39
legitster wrote: post #10

Are there now grounds to start shutting down existing oil fields? Something like 20% of the government budget comes from oil revenue, and the entire pension system (to my understanding) comes from oil funds.

Norway issue their own currency, so 100% of their budget comes from money they spend into existence. Oil has an impact on their ability to import, and on their ability to meet their own energy requirements.

What do you mean by spend into existence? If they collect much more money in taxes and investments than they spend (which they ary), are they then really spending anything into existence?

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#123

Post by burkaman »

xiphias2 wrote: post #21

I would strongly support focusing on getting rid of wood / coal burning first instead of going for much more efficient gas. An import tax on coal burning countries (especially China) would push the incentives in the right direction instead of outsourcing the climate externalities to them.

The tax you're describing sounds like it would be illegal under international law and tied up in courts for years if not decades. I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea in principle, but I don't understand why you would have to do that first before taking much more achievable action. There are a lot of people working on this problem, we can focus on quite a bit at the same time.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#124

Post by InSteady »

brutusborn wrote: post #91
IlliOnato wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threat is not certainty. If somebody is out there to kill you, you are under an existential threat, until they are caught. It's not a reason to start playing Russian roulette, saying "I'm already in danger, cannot get worse than that!"

The same logic applies to shutting down oil and gas production: if we are not certain, then why risk the downsides? I’m not saying this is a good way to think, just that it shows the fault in your logic.

>The same logic applies to shutting down oil and gas production: if we are not certain, then why risk the downsides?

You are conflating the cost of not extracting a fraction of a fraction of current production capacity with the risk ending human existence through changing systems we do not have anything close to a full understanding of nor precise control over.

Degrees of risk matter, in fact they are the whole point of GPs logic.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#125

Post by seb1204 »

Invictus0 wrote: post #117
belval wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, but I feel like Norway gets greenwashed a lot as better than everywhere else, when they are basically a northern Saudi Arabia in terms of exports with over 70% of their exports being oil and gas.

Norway is a beautiful modern liberal democracy, Saudi Arabia is a theocratic desert dictatorship hellhole.

Having been to both countries I fully agree. However the GP had a point in that the public image of Norway is hydro power and 90% EVs nowadays. The fact that they are a major oil and gas exporter is not as widespread.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#126

Post by brutusborn »

was_a_dev wrote: post #100
brutusborn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely a physicist is best placed to ‘Nullius in Verba’ and to do his own research. Climate models are fundamentally physical simulations after all…

Climate models are fundamentally physical, but I don't have the insight in the field to have the deep insight to make qualified opinions. I could after significant research as suggested. But that is a significant endeavour, hence following the opinion of the field is typically sufficient. It's like a fronted developer making comments on kernel development and vice versa. It's both fundamentally code, but different fi…

I think if you’ve looked at numerical models then you have enough knowledge to at least judge the underlying assumptions: boundary conditions, numerical stability, discretisation methods, validation methods and results.

In the same way that I can verify a SAT solution, I don’t need to know how to code a sat solver.

Unfortunately there are fundamental disagreements about most of the critical parts of climate science, so going by the opinion of the field isn’t foolproof (who to choose? How to choose?). Many fields have had false consensus beliefs before, and most of their problems weren’t 1000th the difficulty of climate modelling.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#127

Post by tordrt »

elil17 wrote: post #74
xenospn wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norwegian GDP just took a hit

A country like Norway, with one of the highest GDPs per capita in the world (significantly higher than even America's), is exactly the country that should be thinking about the environment before they think about economic development.

The environmental effects of stopping oil and gas production in Norway are not clear. Norway account for something like 2% of the worlds production. OPEC are already price fixing the market, and could (and propably would) easily replace Norways production. Some reports argue it will even increase emissions due to being replaced by less sustainable produciton.

The developing world is too dependent on oil and gas. Rapid degrowth in global oil and gas production would lead to mass hunger. It is only the developed world who can afford to stop using oil and gas at the moment. We have to replace the worlds energy needs with something else, before we take environmental choices to cut production. Third world countries suffer without cheap oil and gas.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#128

Post by brutusborn »

hnbad wrote: post #99
brutusborn wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because science just updates our beliefs, it doesn’t produce ‘truths’ that we can follow. See the Problem of Induction or the Duhem–Quine thesis.

What do you think truth is other than confident beliefs? Nothing can produce "truths". If you want absolute truths, pick a holy text and decide for yourself what absolute truth you can pin on it.

You summarised my point nicely.

What we call ‘truth’ is just the beliefs we think are most accurate. ‘Just follow the science’ is silly because it essentially means following beliefs on faith without questioning whether they are the best theory. In many cases the better theory goes against the consensus.

E.g. mothers who ‘just followed the science’ and took Thalidomide caused their children untold suffering. They could have been skeptical but instead they had faith in science, which was unfortunately done badly.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#129

Post by tordrt »

thendrill wrote: post #83
whatever1 wrote: post #45

Cool cool will the youth also return the money in their oil pension funds?

The pension fund money is not real and will never be seen by the population, it is all controlled by private hedge funds. Retirement age in Norway is 70... And there are some rumors about going to 72. Also there is talks of increasing taxes on the pensionsts... So what is the point of having a pensions fund if you are never going to retire...

The pension fund money is already partly used in the government budget. Neither is it at all controlled by private hedge funds.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#130

Post by brutusborn »

codetrotter wrote: post #115
newsclues wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a process not an end state. “Follow science” and ‘follow “the” science’ are two different things, and we just need to go back in history to understand that humans did some horrible stuff because of “the” science.

Hm.. I don’t see that distinction in this case. To me when they say they “follow the science” it does not imply an end state. To me it only implies “everything we know so far”. I am sure that if scientific results showed the opposite of their current idea, they would once again update their view.

Your intuition of scientists updating views is wrong, see Kuhns scientific revolutions for more examples. Scientists generally stick to preconceived notions long after there is data to refute them.

E.g. heliocentrism, germ theory, cigarettes being unhealthy, lobotomies being optimal

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