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"That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

joethepeacock.blogspot.co.uk

121–130 of 206 posts

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#121
post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

US schools have a much broader social role than schools in Europe, and therefor tend to form a social universe of their own.

In Europe virtually all activities that are not directly related to being in a classroom happen outside the school, and so kids are more likely to have multiple social circles.

Or in other words: going to school in Europa resembles going to work as an adult much more than in the US.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#122
post #55

Nice, that will help him alot. As somebody from Europe, we always see these typical American High Schools and think it can really be like this. Sure they overdo it in movies but I have read a fair amount of blogpost and reddit comments that discribe the same problem. There is grouping and groupe think too in Schools here but not in the same extrem way. It could be selection bios on my part but lets look at the diffre…

US schools have a much broader social role than schools in Europe, and therefor tend to form a social universe of their own.

In Europe virtually all activities that are not directly related to being in a classroom happen outside the school, and so kids are more likely to have multiple social circles.

Or in other words: going to school in Europa resembles going to work as an adult much more than in the US.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#123
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from the UK and I have the same reaction to most of these stories. Can it really be that bad? Is the American school system so dramatically different? I went to a high school which was not split by grade. I was called a "geek" or "boffin" (basically the regional equivalent of nerd) because I was often top of the class, or made fun of because I have mild scoliosis. I managed to keep a good group of friends though…

One of the big differences is just the size of the schools. I was in Ireland for 8th and 9th grade. The school I went to consisted of grades 6th-12th with a total of around 300 students, with 48 kids in my grade. My graduation class from high school back in the US was around 600. My high school consisted of 10th-12th grade with around 1800 students total. This difference in size makes a huge impact in the different c…

My secondary/high school had 300-400 kids per year, about 1500 over the 4 years it covered. Though my previous two schools to that were much smaller, I think it's generally common here for junior schools to be smaller than senior schools. And I think you're right, smaller schools probably have less of a chance of large distinct social groups forming.

Perhaps there is a tipping point though, where these groups form, I certainly didn't experience such well defined and distinct groups as these kinds of stories portray. The other difference I suppose was school uniform, though I feel like that's unlikely to have made a significant difference.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#124
post #19

Is this a US thing? In Ukraine, no-one is weird. No-one is a geek, or a nerd -- there aren't even equivalent words in our language. Nobody thinks less of you if you're smart, shy, or talk about transistors on occasion. There are no "popular kids", and even the scariest kid in school is not a bully. So, again, what is wrong with US schools?

You must be joking. Bullying in Russian and Ukrainian schools is probably much more severe than in US. It is common for people to get beaten.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#125
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't necessarily help. I speak from experience: I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success. Any time I had to interact with anyone I felt terrible and awkward and…

I was not home schooled (I'm not sure such a thing exists in Sweden) but before I started school, my grandparents took care of me while my parents went to work, so I didn't go to daycare or anything like that. Even these days into middle age I'm clearly more "socially challenged" than most people. I remember school being quite a shock to me, and I do think that it would have been useful to be exposed to more kids at…

I should add a disclaimer to my condemnation: I have seen some kids who did well "home schooled", but they were what Americans call "unschoolers" where the parents didn't teach them at all and instead they are expected to be out in the world learning through social interactions with non-family. Most of them found real work to do, had fun playing with kids their own age in the area, helped care for younger kids and learned about different topics they ran across. They picked up responsibility and deadlines through real work, and research through being interested in things.

Around high school they'd often take some classes at high schools or community colleges, but instead of being less socialized than the other kids there they were more socialized and were already used to having to interact with other kids in unstructured environments. Instead of spending time with their parents or in structured activities (home schooling) or just with kids their own age and structured activities (traditional schooling), they had the chance to learn from unstructured social interactions with everyone from infants to adults.

I think the concept of nuclear families is pretty unnatural, but so is a society stratified by age. Add to that that most teenagers aren't doing anything that matters and you get the frustrated, pointless bickering of high school. I don't think structured activities combined with opting out are a good substitute, but it is possible to provide teenagers with meaningful work, personal agency and the time and opportunity for unstructured social interactions.

The problem is that that requires giving up a lot of control over children (and the myth of "child" as vastly different than everyone else), and almost no parents I've met are willing to do so. They're happy to drive to 1001 piano lessons and organized play dates and craft projects, but not to let their kid go take off through the neighborhood on their own. They don't want their 14 year old to be forced to sit in class, but want to know where the kid is at all times and make sure there is always a trusted adult present. Kids are supposed to fear strangers, not interact with them. They need to be taught, not discover things for themselves (especially if what they discover is different than what you believe!)

There has to be a better way to keep adults from exploiting teenagers than locking teenagers away, but we haven't apparently found it yet. Everyone wants to shelter, protect and control teenagers. If we take that as a given, at least high school gives kids the advantage of numbers over adults and the chance to learn from one another on the fringes. It doesn't mean it is ideal, but I do think it is better than telling kids they don't need to interact with the world.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you come in looking for a fight? Daniel clearly stated that he thought the argument was a good one, but it's too easy to take the extreme from the headline (or miss the point of the essay entirely), and say that being "weird" is good in and of itself. It's not, clearly. What he's saying is, find your passion and damn the social torpedoes, because it'll all work out in the end. Daniel's point was that being "weird…

"But I'd be careful not to take this argument too far into sophistry." "But there's nothing to be gained in being different in itself." The essay needed no cautionary caveat, and that's what Daniel purported it was missing. I posit it was missing nothing at all, and that only the most hopelessly pedantic interpretation of it would call for an explanation of exception. So, no, not looking for for a fight, just a littl…

A difficulty i have is that it sounds like you're nit-picking OP, claiming that he's nit-picking.

The reason why I bring this up is that i don't think Daniel's point is a small one. And perhaps he hasn't couched it in the most benign of ways (although it is pretty benign), there is a difference between saying "Be true to yourself" and "Being different is okay". It may well be the case that these two things coincide occasionally, but i agree with Daniel that conflating the two misstates what sucks about high school, and how life may change in the future.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#127
I didn't have social trouble in high school, I had trouble in college. And that's something that I think goes unrecognized. Everybody knows about the crazy suburban high school experience, but a surprising number of my friends were severely unhappy in college. I can barely remember my freshman year -- I pretty much blocked it out. And I went to an Ivy League school. There was a kind of background noise level of callousness; people who were "different" in various ways were singled out for mockery in the school paper, people who were struggling were ostracized. And the undergrad culture was seriously misogynistic -- I accepted it as a given while I was there, but by the time I graduated I noticed I was advising girls not to go there if they had other options.

It's not just high school that can suck. Teenagers are immature, but there are other kinds of environments that can be stressful and isolating. And the advice is the same -- get through it, and then find a culture where you fit in better.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#128
There is a lot to learned and gained from learning how to deal with people. Becoming a hermit is not an achievement. Most people who "do not have friends" are not in that situation because they are something extra special and different snowflakes but because they have not learned how to communicate, empathize, follow simple social norms and perhaps even take shower time to time. Not being an ass usually gets you at least few decent friends.

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#129
post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

It doesn't necessarily help. I speak from experience: I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success. Any time I had to interact with anyone I felt terrible and awkward and…

Thanks for this comment, I found it very interesting.

I recommend people also read another commenter's reaction to home schooling (it's completely the opposite of yours): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3884067

Re: "That's Why You Don't Have Any Friends."

#130
post #7

The author's observation about high school is exactly why my kids, by default, will be home schooled. If they decide they want to go to public or private school at some point, I'll let them. Unlike a lot of kids that end up getting bullied, they'll know that their attendance is completely optional. I'm not looking to shelter them from the real world, only the fake miniature society that exists at school.

It doesn't necessarily help. I speak from experience: I was homeschooled and it was terrible. I didn't learn the 101 little tricks to make interacting with frustrating people that little bit easier, I didn't learn to empathize with people less smart than me and I didn't develop the social intelligence that I believe is vital for long-term success. Any time I had to interact with anyone I felt terrible and awkward and…

Great post, very well-balanced.

One of the dumbest things I heard growing up was that to be silent is to agree with someone, I can't remember the exact quote, I think there are a few variations. So I'd see myself as a hero when someone would say something I'd disagree with, and I'd vociferously disagree. When I thought about why I didn't have many friends, I realized, though I saw myself as a hero following this high-minded idea about silence=consent, I was really being a rude, mean, self-righteous jerk. Then I'd go to the other extreme and agree with everything other people said, but I'd have no self-esteem or self-respect.

In the real world, it is more practical to switch the subject or say there are parts of other's opinions I can agree with, without agreeing with the whole thing. It's all about balance and nuance. I've been around many people that act like they always speak their mind, but then I've been able to observe them in difficult situations, they are far more conformist than they'd ever admit.

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