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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#121

Post by pgeorgi »

cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

> 1. It has to happen in the same time as the agression

There are still rockets flying out of Gaza into Israel.

> 2. Its only purpose is to defend against the agression

The people sending those rockets are in Gaza, so to stop them, Israel has to go there.

> 3. The defense has to be proportionate

That one is regularly the most difficult point of contention in individual self-defense. Hamas essentially goes by this playbook: https://imgur.com/XX6HVrn

So, moving it back to individual self-defense (or coming to somebody's aid, which is covered by approximately the same rules): what should be done about the guy holding a loaded gun at his hostage's head while covering himself in babys?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#123

Post by frontman1988 »

TehShrike wrote: post #111

The more I read about war the shittier it gets. This sounds like a lot of the others. I keep reading about wars, though. It seems more dangerous to look away.

War is hell. Mostly innocents suffering on both sides of the border. And we don't seem to learn, entire human civilization's history is full of war, even peace time is just preparation for the next war.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#124

Post by acdha »

cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

> However supportive of Israel one may be and how repulsed one should be by Hamas, I'd say that we should not fool ourselves in that the military operation in Gaza is Israel defending itself ("Israel's right to defend itself" is now a commonplace phrase) rather than avenging itself.

I’ve felt that as well, and I would add that even if you feel every action is justified I am skeptical that it’s not counterproductive. Each civilian killed by mistake has family, friends, and neighbors who might be inclined to avenge them and it’s hard for me to see how this doesn’t end up giving Hamas more recruits than they’re losing.

I especially liked this FP piece where the author mentioned that the big driver they saw for terrorism was loss of land. That’s forced so much conflict and it seems likely to keep this raging for years to come.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/israels-failed-bombing...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#125

Post by dang »

mistermann wrote: post #101
dang wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not the only point of discussing this topic, and definitely not the point of discussing it here. This follows from HN's core principle* because curiosity and battle can't be active at the same time. I agree with you about this: > everyone who clicks on this will have an opinion that’s not, well, academic let’s say ... but as I've explained elsewhere in this thread, I don't think suppressing the topic outright…

> This follows from HN's core principle* because curiosity and battle can't be active at the same time. Does HN have a policy against epistemic soundness in claims? Because if there is a method that is maximally useful for these sorts of issues, it is disciplined epistemology. Yet, I know of no explicit policy on it, but I have been subjected to scolding for practicing it, suggesting there is an implicit policy, at l…

I'm afraid I don't understand your comment, nor what you mean by epistemic soundness, but I'm pretty sure HN has no policy against it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#126

Post by amanaplanacanal »

srackey wrote: post #51
itsoktocry wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Why is Israel’s reaction worse? They seem to be reacting to an unprovoked attack by an openly genocidal neighbor with a pretty big-standard conventional war to eliminate the problem regime. I’m not saying that Israel couldn’t be more mindful of optics or civilian casualties, but how is this war not justified?

This war didn’t start on September 7th. It’s been going on longer than any of us have been alive.

The atrocities on both sides are horrible, and I feel sorry for the civilians on both sides who are just trying to live their lives. Unfortunately the Israeli government has all the power here, and they have been completely unable to find a solution over, now, decades. The blockade of Gaza and expanding settlements in the West Bank are just continually stirring the pot. That government, and Hamas, both have to go.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#127

Post by LtWorf »

ardit33 wrote: post #50
ameminator wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

[flagged]

The former Israeli ambassador in Italy has been on Italian TV saying that the destruction of Gaza is their goal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luz1jnI6OIk (video in Italian).

So I believe that civilian casualties are intentional, and all the talk of safe areas (with no clear indication of what these areas are) is just a sham.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#128

Post by hef19898 »

dubcanada wrote: post #93
hiddencost wrote: post #70

My political awareness was forged by the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the American response. The core lesson: the point of a terrorist attack is to trigger an over reaction. America wildly over reacted and became fundamentally hostile to Arab and Muslim people. This reaction led to some of the most successful recruiting of radicals in generations. Israel's response to this crisis seems to have failed to learn from that…

Israel's response tends to stem from a history of oppression which is where it gets touchy. Jewish have not exactly been treated well for most of the 20th century. Not saying that is a reason to invoke that upon someone else, but it tends to be where most thoughts come from. A sense of if we don't do something we'll lose "our" home.

That explains what happened in 50s and 60s. Leveling Gaza in 2023 doesn't fall in that category, Hamas never had the power to do anything about Israel's existence as a state.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#129

Post by ashirusnw »

throwboatyface wrote: post #99
hiddencost wrote: post #70

My political awareness was forged by the 9/11 terrorist attacks and the American response. The core lesson: the point of a terrorist attack is to trigger an over reaction. America wildly over reacted and became fundamentally hostile to Arab and Muslim people. This reaction led to some of the most successful recruiting of radicals in generations. Israel's response to this crisis seems to have failed to learn from that…

All reports are that Netanyahu and the Israeli intelligence services knew this attack was coming. They've been promoting Hamas over more moderate elements in Gaza. The goal was to provoke an attack which would "justify" a counter-attack to completely level Gaza and kill or force out all the remaining civilians.

[flagged]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#130

Post by dang »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #83
dang wrote: post #2

All: if you're going to comment in this thread, please do not do so in the spirit of battle. The latter is off topic here, and the last thread HN had about this did not do well enough at keeping to the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Instead, ask first whether you can find a place of compassion in yourself before commenting. If you can't, that's understandable, but then please don'…

You usually nuke stories that are political. I'm not being critical, it clearly leads to significant improvement over similar sites. What makes this one different? When I see a headline like this, I usually assume I managed to see it before you did, and if I refresh the page that it will probably disappear. So again, and without accusation, what's different? Bad things happen all over the world, nearly constantly or…

Users usually flag them, but yes, moderators often downweight them too—and then there are times that we turn off the flags.

The answer to your question goes like this: (1) some stories with political overlap are on topic (see https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... (2) we try to be careful about which those are, so the site doesn't go down in flames; (3) I think it follows from HN's core principle (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...) that we have to allow at least some discussion of this topic—to suppress it altogether would contradict the intended spirit of HN; and (4) I've explained (or tried to) the sense in which this particular story can be on topic for HN, in my other comments in this thread.

If you or anyone reads that material and still have a question that isn't answered there, I can take a crack at it. Just please understand that the answer may or may not be satisfying, because even if we agree on the principles, different people interpret and draw the lines differently. The important thing for HN moderation is the principles, though, not the individual calls.

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