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Europe needs to escape providerism

loeber.substack.com

121–130 of 136 posts

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#121
post #120
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i strongly disagree (or i am not getting your point) first of all, protection of individuals is the only thing that matters. yes, the current rules are a patchwork, but i don't see any alternative. how is setting constraints on the language model going to help protect me from abuse by that model? for example how would such a regulation prevent facial recognition? a more limited model only limits the capacity of a fac…

The critical nuance is that most of these machine learning applications have existed for a long time. We've had facial recognition for well over a decade. We've had the ability to generate text. We have statistical models for credit scoring, and so forth. The difference -- why all of this stuff is being regulated now and not 20 years ago -- is that under current techniques, these models are just much more powerful an…

machine learning applications have existed for a long time. [...] The difference is that under current techniques, these models are just much more powerful and accurate today.

and now you are suggesting that if these are to be regulated, they should effectively stop becoming better? what would be the point of that?

Everything affects a person's life

well, yes, so there must be a way to force a company to reverse a change that affects me.

kneecapping models doesn't prevent a company from disabling an electronic lock or closing my account. these are problems that already exist regardless of what caused those changes. google or facebook should not be allowed to terminate users unless they can prove fraud. how they arrived at the decision is quite irrelevant. insurance companies should not be allowed to deny coverage without a human verifying the decision, and also not without a human who is able to reverse a decision. weaker models are not going to enforce that, unless the models are so weak that they become useless. again, what would be the point of that?

until recently those models were not good enough. i read that as: they were useless for serious applications. they were research under development. we have been working on this for decades, and only now we are approaching the point where these tools actually become useful.

but the impetus for regulation is that these models are being used and yet still do not work well enough. they do make mistakes, and those mistakes need to be supervised and fixed if needed. if they would work perfectly to the point that an affected person can get them to reverse decisions, then this would be less of an issue.

i agree with you that the current regulations are difficult, but i do not see the benefit in regulating how those models are built instead. the damage happens at the interface between human and machine, and to prevent humans from getting hurt that interface is what needs to be regulated.

what you are suggesting sounds to me like proposing that knives made from steel are to dangerous, because a steel blade doesn't become dull fast enough. so we should instead only make knives from wood to make them weaker. but a wooden blade can still kill. so really what needs to be regulated is how the knives are used, not how they are made.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#122
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, not a single American I've talked to who was on the fence about moving to Europe was deterred by not knowing the native language well enough. Whether overly optimistic or not, the prospect of spending a few months learning well enough to barely get by and spending more time later to become more adept never amounted to even a footnote in the deciding factors.

Sure, they convince themselves that everyone speaks English, which is generally true in the kinds of places that hire expats. But plenty of them find it hard to fit in socially, and then leave later.

That doesn't seem relevant to your original point. Is it supposed to be, or is this a separate thread of conversation?

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#123
post #96

> I had never in my life met people who make stuff. In Europe, my parents worked for non-profits. The parents of my friends were mostly middle managers, financiers, or professional service providers. Living in Silicon Valley is profoundly different, because the people you meet are working on building things that you use. Your milieu is not a whole continent. I know lots of people who actually make stuff.

Of course there are people that make stuff. There are VW factories, there are natural gas wells, there is a baker just down the road selling bread. But the author is using an anecdote to make a point: America is about making stuff. Most people in the US make things. We have government bureaucrats and university professors and data entry people, but a larger portion of our population creates things, it's a part of our…

> but a larger portion of our population creates things

Any data supporting this? USA still runs a trade deficit against Europe.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#124
Curious other than Norway with its massive oil funds and Germany with its manufacturing industry, and to some extent France.

How do rest of EU ensure exports > imports?

Or is it all piggy backing of the big producers like Germany that the Euro is kept strong?

What is the incentive for European countries to product more if someone else is doing it for them?

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#126
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a certain pompous attitude that’s left over from when they ran the world but badly in need of an update.

> certain pompous attitude It's not pompous. When you attribute others of being pompous or smug, that's just your gut being triggered, and your defense mechanism kicking in. No need to be triggered. > they ran the world but badly in need of an update None of the comments here refer to any sort of longing for a colonial past. Here's the thing about that article, and the invariable discussion that follow it. Americans…

It sounds like you have not visited the US, have an EU centered take on the world and seem to value culture greater than everything else (classic EU position to take). What you describe are caricatures of Europe and the US - it's probably best to go explore the world a bit more if you do hold the positions you mentioned above as they aren't uniformly accurate.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#127
post #96

> I had never in my life met people who make stuff. In Europe, my parents worked for non-profits. The parents of my friends were mostly middle managers, financiers, or professional service providers. Living in Silicon Valley is profoundly different, because the people you meet are working on building things that you use. Your milieu is not a whole continent. I know lots of people who actually make stuff.

ITT bourgeoisie people living in affluent burbs that cater to the service industry only meet people who are also in the service industry.

News at 11.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#128
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> certain pompous attitude It's not pompous. When you attribute others of being pompous or smug, that's just your gut being triggered, and your defense mechanism kicking in. No need to be triggered. > they ran the world but badly in need of an update None of the comments here refer to any sort of longing for a colonial past. Here's the thing about that article, and the invariable discussion that follow it. Americans…

It sounds like you have not visited the US, have an EU centered take on the world and seem to value culture greater than everything else (classic EU position to take). What you describe are caricatures of Europe and the US - it's probably best to go explore the world a bit more if you do hold the positions you mentioned above as they aren't uniformly accurate.

> as they aren't uniformly accurate.

of course they're not. no broad generalization can be fully accurate. There's always counter examples.

Also, not that it matters, being on the internet and all, but you literally don't know me and couldn't be more wrong about my situation.

Re: Europe needs to escape providerism

#129
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you have not visited the US, have an EU centered take on the world and seem to value culture greater than everything else (classic EU position to take). What you describe are caricatures of Europe and the US - it's probably best to go explore the world a bit more if you do hold the positions you mentioned above as they aren't uniformly accurate.

> as they aren't uniformly accurate. of course they're not. no broad generalization can be fully accurate. There's always counter examples. Also, not that it matters, being on the internet and all, but you literally don't know me and couldn't be more wrong about my situation.

I can make assumptions based upon your statements they are surprisingly narrow especially as they espouse to be from a cultured european.
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