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Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

construction-physics.com

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Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#121

Post by corethree »

mercutio2 wrote: post #113
corethree wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal is to ring it around the bay. They've been failing to do this for decades. You'll probably be dead before they finish that.

That hasn’t actually been a goal for 50 years. That was a “maybe if this is really successful we’ll do it” vision in the early days of BART planning. Extend to downtown San Jose? Maybe a goal for 20 years from now. Add additional transbay tubes? Sure, if the tooth fairy pays for it. The electorate emphatically does not want to pay for more BART, much as I’d like it to be otherwise.

>maybe if this is really successful we’ll do it

Even worse. They're so self aware of their own incompetence they know it's pure luck if they can pull it off. My overall point still stands they can barely ring it around the bay they definitely won't be able to build a single geothermal plant in Yellowstone.

How come in other countries you get a much nicer train and you don't need the tooth fairy to pay for it? Rhetorical question.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#122

Post by habinero »

Someone wrote: post #83
habinero wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen several professional geologists answer this question, and no, really, volcanos don't work that way. For one, the scale is way, way too big. It's like stabbing an elephant with a needle and expecting it to bleed out. Also, the dangerous type of magma is extremely viscous and gas-rich. It doesn't flow like Hawaiian lava does.

But in this case, we want the elephant to (significantly) bleed out, so won’t we need a BIG needle? If you want to move lots of heat away fast, you either need a big pipe or a very high flow rate. “Gas-rich”, to me, also sounds as if it would be more dangerous.

In this analogy, the needle is as big as we can make it.

Gas-rich is where the danger is, as I understand it. Those gasses expand as they get closer to the surface, and if they're trapped in viscous magma that doesn't flow easily and puts a lot of stress on the rocks above.

The fluid basaltic lavas of Hawaii don't explode, they flow out and make shield volcanos.

Check out geologist Shawn Wilsey's videos.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#123

Post by andrewflnr »

hollerith wrote: post #111
AdamN wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iirc it works well in Kenya because the thermal gradient is really steep and the heat is right near the surface. I don't think that's common around the world. Local expenses (labor, etc...) are also cheaper than in many parts of the world. Geothermal is however one of the electricity sources with the fewest negative externalities so definitely should be pursued where possible.

Extract enough heat from Earth and Earth loses its magnetic field and then its atmosphere and oceans (from the effects of the solar wind) which sounds like a negative externality to me.

While it's true we would die first, I bet we'd transition to other power sources even earlier. If we ever get fusion working reliably, that will probably be more convenient than geothermal, and at that point the geothermal plants will start slowly going defunct with no replacements.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#124

Post by neuromanser »

rapnie wrote: post #98
ehnto wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a sense of the scale you are talking, but I would love to see more megaprojects. Truly mega. When we aren't getting in our own way, humans do some pretty awesome stuff.

I like a mega challenge that is manageable because everyone can do their tiny part. Like the Justdiggit project [0], on a mission to regreening Africa and cooling down the planet. All one needs is a shovel and knowledge how to dig shallow holes with a ridge to avoid rainwaters flushing furtile topsoil away, and store water for plants to grow in the dry season. [0] https://justdiggit.org/

Do you know if they have anything on the following? Sahara is the source of minerals for the Amazon rainforest (winds carry fine sand over the Atlantic), "regreening" Africa is likely to stop this transfer, leading to soil exhaustion in Amazon.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#125

Post by Zardoz84 »

hollerith wrote: post #111
AdamN wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iirc it works well in Kenya because the thermal gradient is really steep and the heat is right near the surface. I don't think that's common around the world. Local expenses (labor, etc...) are also cheaper than in many parts of the world. Geothermal is however one of the electricity sources with the fewest negative externalities so definitely should be pursued where possible.

Extract enough heat from Earth and Earth loses its magnetic field and then its atmosphere and oceans (from the effects of the solar wind) which sounds like a negative externality to me.

Extracting enough energy to do that, would probably meltdown the earth crust.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#126

Post by hollerith »

jesse9766 wrote: post #114
hollerith wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extract enough heat from Earth and Earth loses its magnetic field and then its atmosphere and oceans (from the effects of the solar wind) which sounds like a negative externality to me.

We'll (and humanity itself) be long dead by then

If you haven't done a calculation incorporating an estimate of the heat content of the Earth's interior, then you cannot know whether humanity will be dead by then.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#127

Post by ShadowBanThis01 »

jtriangle wrote: post #16
fooker wrote: post #8

Could we trigger an eruption by extensive drilling in/around the magma chamber?

No, it's not like a balloon, an eruption isn't the earth popping, it's an upheaval from the mantle eventually surfacing through a weak spot that causes it.

A weak spot like the puncture from a well?

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#128

Post by AnthonyMouse »

jacquesm wrote: post #81
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that inaction is also fraught. "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." Some time ago scientists were concerned that the Earth was headed into another ice age. Then we started burning all of this carbon, so that's not happening anymore. Great, catastrophe averted. Now we're burning way too much and going hard the other way. Damn it. Okay, so the status quo is no good, maybe we shoul…

That's a fair point, however, action has often much clearer short term consequences than inaction, and the consequences of inaction can be studied at leisure because action always is still an option. But once you've done your action thingy you can't go back to what it was like before.

That isn't really a distinction. Prolonged inaction when action is warranted can have consequences that are just as irreversible.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#129

Post by mulmen »

jacquesm wrote: post #80
mulmen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with everything except your conclusion. Even if we could resist our fundamental nature how do we know that our current values are more correct than the evolutionary forces that have kept us alive for millions of years? We keep getting in to trouble and getting away with it. What if whoever didn’t get into trouble also didn’t survive.

> We keep getting in to trouble and getting away with it. The ultimate survivorship bias.

Well, yes, that’s natural selection for you.

Re: Could we stop Yellowstone from erupting with a geothermal power plant?

#130

Post by isthatafact »

sschueller wrote: post #38

Depending on the depth this can be risky. Switzerland had two larger projects to dig deep enough for a geothermal power plant and both got cancled due to the triggered earth quakes. [1] There may be another attempt but it's risky and I think doing this at Yellowstone maybe a lot more risky. [1] https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/strom-aus-erdwaerme-trotz-sc...

I inferred from the article that the risks are very poorly understood. If it just triggers a bunch of very minor earthquakes, that would be insignificant compared to potentially preventing a civilization-ending eruption.

Maybe learning more with simulations or theory is a good way forward, or maybe small scale experiments. If we do nothing and eventually notice that a giant eruption is about to happen, I suppose it would be too late. There seem to be many similarities in long term risk and possible prevention of asteroid impacts. I think these problems are worth exploring even though there is probably no direct benefit within a human lifetime.

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