Other points of reference:
0. Fire the workaholics by DHH / Signal v. Noise (2008) and Ch. 2 of Rework (2010)
https://signalvnoise.com/posts/902-fire-the-workaholics
1. Working hard is not just a dial you turn up to 11. - pg
A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
121–130 of 133 posts
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Notice how even if you are an early bird and in the office by 9, you are a lazy slacker when you leave at 5? Then someone rolls in at 11 and leaves at 7 - same number of hours. HARD WORKER. So I generally agree with your post, but is this what constitutes early riser these days? I get having kids and missing the key 7-9am time slot, but is an 11am start time a Usual Thing?
Yeah 9am is not early at all and way more into running late territory. Early risers to me means focused and productive at 730AM local time. I’m usually ready to go full speed by 8AM, I wfh and kids are out the door to school by 7:35-7:40Am. /in the US and work in consulting
> Yeah 9am is not early at all and way more into running late territory.
I saw that on the east coast, which is partly why I moved away.
In silicon valley my norm (for ~25 years) has been to start around 11am which is much more tolerable.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
I disagree with some of this. I think if you work with international teams, half of the time of day stuff is in play no matter what. But in general I sort of agree that we should all try to work slower/work fewer hours, for the good of society. But we shouldn’t harass those who have more time and interest in the work they’re doing and want to work more, or those who might need more breaks or work most optimally at a…
Fully agree. If you have international teams, they shouldn't be working on the same project, if it can be avoided. Having teams with different working hours work the same project sabotages communications.
> Having teams with different working hours work the same project sabotages communications.
Not really, but you have to become good at written communication. Which has a lot of benefits beyond the immediate one.
In companies where everything happens by people huddling together real-time, the result is (nearly always) that nothing is documented, which leads to disaster longer term.
I've loved working on projects where the team is globally distributed so that there is activity 24hrs and you work with people with zero overlap on working hours.
Instead of relying on ephemeral hallway conversations, you need to build a culture of updating tickets with informative content, documenting plans, and so on. This fill the immediate need of daily communication but more importantly now you have everything documented and a paper trail of every decision and bug fix which is incredibly valuable.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#124The irony of Slack writing about productivity is not lost on me. "The productivity pit: how Slack is ruining work": https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/5/1/18511575/productivity-sl...
Yes! I hate hate slack culture so so so much.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#125Investment banker here. The culture of software/tech better valuing work life balance is alluring. Whats described in the article is pretty alien to me. I typically have 4-6 hours of meetings a day (client calls) and am also expected to do 6+ hours of document/email work a day on top of that. I have to do somewhere between 2-10 hrs of work every weekend. It is impossible to keep up, so i am always disappointing someb…
> Ideas?
You're making about 3x+ of a senior software engineer (sure there are exceptions but they are not the norm) so if you can hold on to that for ten years you've done a whole lifetime of software engineering income.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
In this case it just makes sense to have RTO at reduced hours. Make the standard work day something like 10-4. I never understood why people throw the baby out with the bathwater on things like this.
I think in our case it was driven by the company's new owners not being based in our area, and not understanding that our commute and living situations are vastly different from theirs.
Or understanding but deliberately making advantage of the difference.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#127Yet another ink blot study where everyone will look at the results and see what they want to see. Work however long you want JFC.
I agree. I think this comment would be highly upvoted if it included citations to contradictory studies, and maybe had a more constructive tone.
That’s good feedback thank you
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
> make things easier for working parents. During the (now semi-aborted) back-to-office push at my employer, several of us pointed out that a 9-5 in the office is impossible for those of us with children and a commute. - 8:00am - earliest free drop-off time at school. - 8:12 or 8:20 - next bus or train to the city. I can probably make that from the school, if I fully sprint for at least half that journey. (Taking a ca…
how did you do that before covid when working from home wasn't yet common? i understand the problem for a single parent. in most countries they just can't work 8 hours a day. the time where kids are away for me for example is barely 8 hours by the clock. that is without commuting time and lunch break. once the kids come home someone needs to start preparing dinner, followed by housework. with two parents however, one…
> how did you do that before covid when working from home wasn't yet common?
Everything was different than the scenario I described in my earlier comment, including my employer. (And to be clear, my current employer dropped the 9-5 requirement when they realized they wouldn't have any engineers left if they tried to enforce it.)
The commute was significantly shorter, and we relied on the subway - not trains - which came more regularly.
There was no requirement for a 9-5, and so I could either do both drop-off and pick-up, or we could divide the responsibilities between my spouse and I.
Furthermore, we could work from home as necessary.
> with two parents however, one parent could work early, and the other could work late so that there is one parent around in the morning and one in the evening. the trouble now is of course that this becomes a coordination problem with two different employers who have different expectations for the work schedule
Exactly. And I would have choice words for an employer who suggested that the problem they're plopping in my lap for no reason should suddenly become my spouse's concern.
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Notice how even if you are an early bird and in the office by 9, you are a lazy slacker when you leave at 5? Then someone rolls in at 11 and leaves at 7 - same number of hours. HARD WORKER. So I generally agree with your post, but is this what constitutes early riser these days? I get having kids and missing the key 7-9am time slot, but is an 11am start time a Usual Thing?
Incidentally, I was wondering what having our 0-hour at 6am (equinox sunrise) instead of midnight would do to our average wake-up schedule. Waking at 6, 7, 8, 10, seems pretty arbitrary, but waking up at 0-hour feels more significant to me.
For me it is amazingly slow how time seems to pass at 1, 2, 3, 4 AM versus 9-12 PM
I've never really thought about why that is, but just the relative difference between the numbers may be part of it
Re: A connection between after-hours work and decreased productivity
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Working smart vs working hard. Also - optics. Notice how even if you are an early bird and in the office by 9, you are a lazy slacker when you leave at 5? Then someone rolls in at 11 and leaves at 7 - same number of hours. HARD WORKER. People are shallow, visual, and have no attention spans (especially now). You need to be aware of the optics and play them. No, you are not gaming the system - you are getting to the e…
> Notice how even if you are an early bird and in the office by 9, you are a lazy slacker when you leave at 5? Then someone rolls in at 11 and leaves at 7 - same number of hours. HARD WORKER. So I generally agree with your post, but is this what constitutes early riser these days? I get having kids and missing the key 7-9am time slot, but is an 11am start time a Usual Thing?
11am is the best start time for me if I have to be on a set schedule. 10am being my wake up time. These aren't ideal personally but it is a workable compromise. Although I'd rather not have to compromise on my sleep at all.