23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration • Hacker News Board

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#121

Post by mimischi » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:05 AM UTC

logifail wrote: post #117

crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Aren’t you able to buy a sticker vignette at just about every stop kilometers away from the Austrian border, as well as inside?

I get your point that the digital one has to jump through hoops due to these regulations, but there are alternatives if you need one /now/

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#122

Post by anon373839 » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:12 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #116

m463 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

by law in california you can opt-out of binding arbitration in any contract for a short time after signing it. (30? 60? days? i am not a lawyer)

This is interesting. Can anyone provide more details?

Individual states don’t have the power to restrict arbitration agreements in this way. California has tried repeatedly, but the laws keep getting invalidated because they’re preempted by the Federal Arbitration Act, which requires that contracts containing binding arbitration clauses be enforced and treated the same as all other contracts. State laws that selectively disfavor or restrict arbitration agreements will violate this.

If this regrettable state of affairs is to be improved, it will require an act of Congress, unfortunately.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#123

Post by robertlagrant » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:18 AM UTC

crote wrote: post #110

deckeraa wrote: post #7

The more TOS I read through, the more it seems we need a "common law" solution. (I use the term "common law" loosely here) Something like a couple of pre-defined categories for software services (e.g. info provider, social network, real-world interface) with pre-set rules (e.g. the client cannot attempt to break the social network; the owner of the social network cannot re-sell data to a third party). We have somethi…

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation".

Thinking in such simple terms is going to draw you to wrong conclusions. Hacker News doesn't complain. People discuss things. Different people have different opinions. And if they did - so what? You're phrasing this as though people talking on Hacker News would somehow overturn common law.

> There is no need to mandate a template ToS

The post didn't mention this.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#124

Post by X0Refraction » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:23 AM UTC

logifail wrote: post #117

crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Strange, I would have thought a pro rata refund would be allowable in these cases. I'm pretty sure that's how it works with insurance so I'm unsure why a toll pass would be any different.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#125

Post by Intermernet » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:26 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #114

crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

Australia also has very strong consumer protection laws. I'm not an Aussie, but many come here and tell us about it. It doesn't seem to scare companies away from doing B2C business in Australia.

As an Aussie, I can say that our consumer protection laws are awesome. Some multinational / international companies have been bitten by them, but only because they didn't do their due diligence before launching in Australia.

They're really an example of laws designed to protect people. I've universally found that people who complain about them either don't understand them, or they're trying to take advantage of people.

I don't understand how other countries operate without similar laws!

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#126

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:27 AM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #115

Can someone please confirm: Is forced binding arbitrage allowed in EU/EEA/EFTA? If no, what happens if you are a customer from France or Germany? It seems like this contract is totally unenforceable! A bit deeper, I really wish it was illegal to create intentionally unenforceable contracts. Too many companies create these incredibly scary contracts that no mortal human can understand, let alone know if unenforceable.

[deleted]

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#127

Post by RyanHamilton » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

mimischi wrote: post #121

logifail wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

Aren’t you able to buy a sticker vignette at just about every stop kilometers away from the Austrian border, as well as inside? I get your point that the digital one has to jump through hoops due to these regulations, but there are alternatives if you need one /now/

Yes, there are.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#128

Post by clwg » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

Society and lawmakers need to update the TOS and legislate these companies out of existence and their databases need to be wiped.

Privacy laws really need to be updated for both collection against individuals as well as taking into account what the aggregate data represents.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#129

Post by sedatk » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:38 AM UTC

1letterunixname wrote: post #96

RyanShook wrote: post #51

To: arbitrationoptout@23andme.com Subject: Request to Opt-Out of Updated TOS 23andMe Team, I am contacting you regarding the recent changes to the 23andMe Terms of Service, dated November 30, 2023. My name is [your name as registered with 23andMe], and the email associated with my 23andMe account is [your 23andMe account email]. I hereby formally request to opt out of the newly updated Terms of Service. I do not cons…

Thank you kindly for throwing this template together. You have the makings of an awesome associate or paralegal. ;]

The template is from the article.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#130

Post by RandomLensman » Thu, Dec 07, 2023, 9:52 AM UTC

logifail wrote: post #117

crote wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your country actually implements laws like these and Hacker News starts complaining that it is "business hostile" and "stifling innovation". There are plenty of European countries which already have some laws like these. When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it. I am guaranteed to have a reasonable warranty. Companies cannot abuse my personal data without explicit con…

> When I buy something on the internet, I have 14 days to return it if I don't like it One (unintended?) consequence of this is that as a consumer, you cannot buy an annual digital motorway toll pass in Austria with immediate validity. The earliest your pass can start from is 18 days from the date of purchase. "Customers can withdraw from the online purchase of a digital vignette within 14 days. Taking into account a…

You can buy digital goods for immediate use in other EU countries as a consumer - this sounds like something more specific (is it actually even the same in Austria for things like an e-book?).