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Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#121

Post by microtherion »

hashtag-til wrote: post #105
microtherion wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge. But once an immigrant has been…

[flagged]

> How naive.

All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs.

> Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked

This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firings are extremely rare, H1Bs and citizens work side by side, and I have never seen the former more hesitant to speak up than the latter.

You might want to entertain the thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability, but because they were genuinely qualified.

> The solution here is to increase and qualify the local workforce

That would definitely be helpful. But the trend seems to go the other way, with it being fashionable for opinion leaders to tell people to forego college, and education becoming more and more of a luxury.

> and at the same time make the bar even higher for those from outside

… forcing companies who prefer to hire the best qualified candidates over those with the "right" passport to shift their development activities elsewhere.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#122

Post by sangnoir »

pavlov wrote: post #55
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> Why not give them a path to a green card?

Because it's illegal to (positively) discriminate for these people and shield them from competing with American citizens and GC-holders for jobs.

> Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open?

As Apple just found out: creating a fake position to end-run immigration law is illegal.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#123

Post by closeparen »

rexpop wrote: post #93
closeparen wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG SWE and body-shop “IT” careers couldn’t be more different.

You exaggerate, but maybe you can instead articulate the differences?

In the corporate IT model, the business defines requirements and then seeks implementation resources. The goal is on-time delivery and passable correctness at minimum cost. That might be fulfilled through in-house IT employees, a COTS product, an onshore or offshore consultancy, or some hybrid. In some cases there is no substitute for expensive in-house onshore talent, but the business is always incentivized to seek one.

FAANG engineering shops are not like this at all. Tech teams on their own initiative or with very general charters conceive, create, and release products. If product “requirements” are even written down, there’s a good chance the lead engineers on the project are coauthors. Engineers beyond the entry level are expected to be curious, creative, self-directed… basically bounce around a general problem space creating value wherever and however they can, as long as stakeholders sign off prior to any disruptive changes and there’s a measurable impact to cite for year-end perf.

The value created can be mind-boggling - and so can the compensation packages, at no real loss to management. Any team’s backlog of opportunities is deep, and all of them are much more valuable than any amount of wages that could conceivably be spent chasing them. You don’t just want the job done to spec at minimum cost - you want the most capable and innovative people you can get to be at the whiteboard thinking of jobs it would be interesting to do, because the carrying cost if they’re just okay is insignificant, and the upside if they pull something really brilliant is unlimited.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#124

Post by jogjayr »

coliveira wrote: post #65
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

There is a reason companies pay for this process: they are allowed to maintain the worker for as long as the process goes. And for many people this can take up to 10 years, depending on nationality. If they have a good employee, it is a no-brainer to pay so they cannot leave the company, under the penalty of having the green card process cancelled or restarted.

The applicant keeps their position in the green card line even if they restart the process with a different company. If it will take 10 years at the current company, it will also take 10 years at the next one if they leave right now.

So it does not help retention in the way you believe.

It is beneficial for retention because companies who don't apply for green cards for employees will lose them to firms that apply.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#125

Post by ianhawes »

pridkett wrote: post #19
justrealist wrote: post #9

This is the thing where when you want to sponsor a specific employee for an H1B you have to post notices pretending to look for American citizens instead. Every FAANG is guilty of this. Every startup is guilty of this. There is no law less adhered to in the US. Everyone posts the notice on the office fridge or the receptionist stand or runs some newspaper ad to cover the nominal letter of the law. It's completely poi…

Are you telling me all those job opportunities in the back of IEEE Spectrum where they give 1 line job descriptions and tell you to mail your resume to some anonymous post office box aren’t actual job opportunities? I can’t believe it! In other words, professional societies are complicit in this too.

Newspapers absolutely love the PERM stuff because they charge 5x the price. Larger publications that have self-serve job postings will specifically _not_ allow PERM ads without talking to a sales rep who will give you a substantially higher price than the self-service option.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#126

Post by Tildey »

jl2718 wrote: post #113

If all their job postings are not actually hiring, then they won’t get any applicants for the jobs that actually are, and then they can use that as evidence that they can’t find in-country candidates. So basically the only way to find any real job posting is to spam-apply to everything. Is there a service for that?

google’s new service: gResume, designed to solve the tech industry’s problems around recruitment

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#127

Post by User23 »

pavlov wrote: post #55
tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before.

This isn’t even wrong.

Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#128

Post by sgjohnson »

tomohelix wrote: post #33

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B. PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an a…

> or a decade if you were born in the wrong place...

That's being generous. I'm pretty sure that for people born in India the backlog is well over 100 years. The reason being that only 7500 green cards per year can be issued to people of any particular nationality. If there are 750k Indians with approved GC applications under employment category, that's a 100 year backlog. I'm sure there's a statistic somewhere, and I remember reading an article a couple of years back that claimed that this particular backlog has surpassed 90 years, so it's not unthinkable that today it's over 100.

EB2 final action date for Indian nationals is currently at 01JAN12. Which means that USCIS is currently processing applications from almost 12 years ago. Which means they have to wait a decade before their application even gets approved.

There are people that will quite literally never see an EB2 or EB3 green card in their lives despite having an approved application. The only viable path to a green card for those is marrying a US citizen, period. (as that category has no cap or quota whatsoever)

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#129

Post by ipaddr »

microtherion wrote: post #121
hashtag-til wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> How naive. All I have to go on is 20+ years of employment at Apple, including several years as a H1B and Green Card holder. Can't possibly compete with your sincerely held beliefs. > Citizens have also more rights and companies love to have these clause that make you get your head down and work no questions asked This is undoubtedly the case for some H1B employers, but Apple is not a body shop style operation. Firi…

"I thought that Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai, or Betrand Serlet were not really hired for their pliability but because they were genuinely qualified"

You lost me at this point. Many more qualified less pliable candidates exist but neither are the reason for their hiring.

In general the most qualified person rarely gets the position. The easiest to bend is usually what power seeks.

Re: Apple discriminated against US citizens in hiring, DOJ says

#130

Post by ericye16 »

sangnoir wrote: post #122
pavlov wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain. There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a g…

> Why not give them a path to a green card? Because it's illegal to (positively) discriminate for these people and shield them from competing with American citizens and GC-holders for jobs. > Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open? As Apple just found out: creating a fake position to end-run immigration law is illegal.

I think the point is that immigration law should be changed so companies don't have to jump through hoops like this.
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