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No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

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Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#121

Post by gretch »

jerf wrote: post #87

I've developed a real distaste for the people whining about how we aren't real engineers and we "just" need to solve that by working more like real engineers and having all these massive up-front design meetings and making tons more plans, etc. etc. It betrays a profound misunderstanding of the situation. The other engineering disciplines don't work like that because they're just soooo much more professional than us.…

I completely agree, it's 2 separate mediums with their own optimized process/technique.

It's like sculpting Clay vs Marble. If you make a boo-boo in clay, it just takes you a second to readjust. If you are working in Marble, and you took a piece out that you weren't supposed to - well it's time to order a new marble block.

Taking the techniques and processes of marble sculpting into the world of clay would just make you a bad (or at least highly inefficient) clay sculptor.

And there's really no point to a dick measuring contest of whether clay or marble sculpting is more worthwhile - they both have their own place in our society.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#122

Post by kridsdale3 »

atq2119 wrote: post #97
slingnow wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes a lot of assumptions about how far into the wilderness they were, time of day, accessibility of the roads, cell phone signal, and so on. To just hand wave and call it "common sense" is silly without the rest of the context. And for me, 100 times out of 100 I'm taking the capable guy who can fix the brakes on a trip like this over someone who's first and (likely) only instinct is to call a tow truck.

As long as we're overanalyzing a joke, it's Switzerland. There isn't really a lot of wilderness there ...

This is true. I spent a week hiking the mountains, where I often could see exactly the same environment that has existed for millions of years. But at all those times, a hut serving beer and warm soup was always an hour's walk away.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#123

Post by kridsdale3 »

ganzuul wrote: post #113
cgriswald wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the engine was only idling during their decent if the only thing that slowed their car was 'miraculously' grinding the car against the mountainside. So, using previous records, they should estimate fuel usage during the decent. Then they should walk to the nearest fuel station, purchase fuel, and walk back. During that time, they can calculate the amount of fuel that will evaporate while they have the gas…

OBVIOUSLY, you could have solved the problem with motor braking. The driver is not going to accept fault until there is conclusive evidence of the their wrongdoing, but you can't let the team know you are going to repeat the test again but with a different driver because then they will invent objections to pushing the car up the hill.

Turn the car around 180 degrees facing up. Coast down the hill in reverse and control your descent with the throttle.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#124

Post by xboxnolifes »

frutiger wrote: post #57
feintruled wrote: post #4

That's quite a tale, a parable almost about how software engineering differs from other jobs (I want to say 'real' jobs but tongue in cheek). I like this one too, it's even snappier. A software engineer, a hardware engineer and a department manager were on their way to a meeting in Switzerland. They were driving down a steep mountain road when suddenly the brakes on their car failed. The car careened almost out of co…

> "Well," said the software engineer, "Before we do anything, I think we should push the car back up the road and see if it happens again." Only the brakes don't work - the engine still does. Why would they need to push the car uphill?

The brakes failed, but nothing claimed that they will fail again. So, it's suggested to run the test again.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#125

Post by alpaca128 »

tmpz22 wrote: post #79
renewiltord wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :)

> True. We’re scientists. Replication is important! :) Yes replication: Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we got hacked. I wonder what happens if we write insecure code again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again. Oops we missed a deadline. I wonder what happens if we underestimate again.

It isn't difficult to find non-software projects that overshot deadlines by years and costs by tens of millions or more, just to still have a leaky roof. Including, whether you believe it or not, engineering work.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#127

Post by s1artibartfast »

gretch wrote: post #117
stronglikedan wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineers for critical systems would like a word.

Yeah it makes no sense. Like, you build an airplane and clearly the airplane needs both it's software and it's hardware in order to fly. Somehow the people who made the hardware are engineers, but the people who made the software aren't engineers.

Nobody reasonable is saying that software isn't important, technical, or valuable. It isnt a dig.

It just has to do with the subject matter and definition of Engineer. The clearest delineation is that an Engineers work is the application the laws of physics. Software developers are more akin to Scientists than Engineers. They work in the arrangement of logic and the semantic relation of abstractions.

That is to say, Engineers work within a framework of rules, and Computer scientists construct frameworks of rules.

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#128

Post by danwee »

> By Thursday, I began to worry about my own job security. I had been spinning on a feature I said I would ship 3 days ago.

Off-topic: is it really like that in the US? (I'm assuming he's from the US). Like, if you get stuck for a few days, you start to worry about being fired or reprimanded?

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#129

Post by gretch »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #127
gretch wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it makes no sense. Like, you build an airplane and clearly the airplane needs both it's software and it's hardware in order to fly. Somehow the people who made the hardware are engineers, but the people who made the software aren't engineers.

Nobody reasonable is saying that software isn't important, technical, or valuable. It isnt a dig. It just has to do with the subject matter and definition of Engineer. The clearest delineation is that an Engineers work is the application the laws of physics. Software developers are more akin to Scientists than Engineers. They work in the arrangement of logic and the semantic relation of abstractions. That is to say,…

The definitions you just came up with are completely arbitrary. Worst yet, your definitions aren't even shared.

It's hard to pin down exact agreed upon definitions in English, but I searched many popular dictionaries and none of them have "Engineers work is the application the laws of physics".

Fair enough if you want to have personal definitions of words, but don't try to gaslight the rest of us into thinking your understanding is the canonical one.

Here's my facetious definition to illustrate how dumb the discussion - I think an engineer is a person who works with ENGINES (duh it's in the name). Obviously people who build bridges aren't engineers; do bridges have engines?

Re: No dogs were harmed in the making of this app

#130

Post by organian »

smt88 wrote: post #47
s1artibartfast wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the moral of the story that the hardware engineer is simply correct? - a mechanical engineer

It's mostly just a joke about how these roles do their jobs. But I think it's also partly illuminating the fact that hardware engineers are true engineers, while software engineers mostly aren't.

I think "software engineers aren't really engineers" is putting "real engineering" on a pedestal that is borne of ignorance. Hillel Wayne's engineer interviews were eye-opening on this: https://www.hillelwayne.com/post/are-we-really-engineers/
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