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Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

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Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#121

Post by wink »

cafard wrote: post #101
prmoustache wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a european, I didn't knew this was not a thing at McDonalds. I have always seen beer served there and I don't know why it should be exempt from serving it.

During my long-ago employment at McDonalds, nearly all the staff was under 18, and so ineligible to be handling alcoholic beverages, even 3.2 beer. Many American states are quite fussy about this sort of thing--I've had a younger cashier at a grocery store call over an older to scan my carton of beer. Now I guess there are more of the over-18 or over-21 employed at McDonalds, but it might disrupt the flow of ordering…

In Germany we're allowed to drink beer at 16 (everything at 18) and afaik if you, aged 15 to 17, are working somewhere that sells alcohol there isn't a law that's forbidding you to handle it.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#122

Post by ben_w »

anovikov wrote: post #9
maxehmookau wrote: post #3

This kind of nonsense doesn't play well in Europe. Nor should it. > The company is refusing to sign one, IF Metall has reported, saying that company claims that it doesn't sign collective bargaining agreements anywhere in the world. Welcome to Europe, Elon.

Well he may simply fire all locals and bring in all-foreign staff. What will stop him? Salaries Tesla pay are sufficient for Blue Card or similar permit.

Blue Card is 1.5x gross average local salary. Rather annoyingly, googling this gives me a headline answer of "SEK 57,450 per month" that doesn't actually correspond to any of the actual results following this (many of which aren't for this year anyway).

Also odd (given that it's in the news), I can't get search results telling me what Tesla is currently paying, nor what higher level of pay the union is asking for.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#123

Post by FirmwareBurner »

wink wrote: post #121
cafard wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During my long-ago employment at McDonalds, nearly all the staff was under 18, and so ineligible to be handling alcoholic beverages, even 3.2 beer. Many American states are quite fussy about this sort of thing--I've had a younger cashier at a grocery store call over an older to scan my carton of beer. Now I guess there are more of the over-18 or over-21 employed at McDonalds, but it might disrupt the flow of ordering…

In Germany we're allowed to drink beer at 16 (everything at 18) and afaik if you, aged 15 to 17, are working somewhere that sells alcohol there isn't a law that's forbidding you to handle it.

>In Germany we're allowed to drink beer at 16

We all know nobody cares about that there. Teens get wasted as early as 13 and by 18 they already give up on drinking.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#124

Post by ben_w »

unmole wrote: post #57
bogantech wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What will stop him? Migrationsverket - who get off on deporting foreign skilled workers at any opportunity. Seriously they will deport people for minor administrative mistakes made by the employer even if it was years ago and has been remediated. https://www.forbes.com/sites/freylindsay/2019/02/13/why-swed...

Does that apply to workers from say Poland?

No, for the same reason South Dakota can't deport migrant workers from Washington back to their home state.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#125

Post by ben_w »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #118
waihtis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is the richest man in the world with many excellent companies. Seems to be working well for him.

He is still an idiot - he did not start Tesla btw :).

> he did not start Tesla

While true, this meme feels almost as petty as Musk himself: Tesla had barely shipped its first car when Musk took over.

Founded July 1, 2003, the Roadster was officially revealed to the public on July 19, 2006; Eberhard was asked to step down as CEO in August 2007; Tesla had still only delivered 147 cars by January 2009.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#126

Post by livrem »

anttisalmela wrote: post #4

Empty threats, Nordic unions would just block all the imports.

Yes. The Swedish Transport Union just now declared that workers will stop unloading Tesla cars in the harbors starting noon November 7, if Tesla has not yet signed the collective agreement. Other unions are expected to follow with similar announcements.

Source in Swedish: https://www.dn.se/ekonomi/transport-hotar-att-stoppa-tesla-i...

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#127

Post by MichaelZuo »

eesmith wrote: post #113
s1artibartfast wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thrown off by you bringing up the law, as it were relevant

The law is relevant. In the US, because of the NLRB v. Mackay Radio & Telegraph Co. ruling, companies may use strikebreakers as a permanently replacement for striking workers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLRB_v._Mackay_Radio_%26_Teleg... . The US is one of the few places which allows this. (That is a "Today I Learned".) If I read https://sv-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/%C3%85karpsla... right, Sweden got rid…

That contradicts the parent's point that "Strikebreakers are not illegal in EU.". Since Sweden is part of the EU.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#128

Post by hnbad »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #120
hnbad wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden does not have a minimum wage because unions are more efficient at ensuring livable wages than legislation and setting a legal minimum wage in this scenario would only benefit the bargaining position of employers by giving them a low-ball reference value. This is very different from the neoliberal argument against minimum wages which boils down to "if we need to pay workers a livable wage our profit margins wou…

I think you mean "effective". This is beside the point of what a legal minimum wage is, orthogonal with negotiations through unions, and has nothing to do with liberalisation. There is no reason for Sweden not to have a legal minimum wage. From an outsider's POV this really seems to be psycho-rigid stance " no our system does not need one! " when it actually does not hurt the system or negotiations through unions at…

Literally everything you say in defense of Tesla and against the striking workers can be inversed without becoming any less true.

As others have pointed out, you seem to misunderstand what laws are and what they are for. They're not special and they're not magic, they're just slightly more rigid frames padded with layers of contracts and ultimately held together by good will.

To put it another way: a law can not stop me from killing you. Gun laws can make it more difficult for me to acquire a suitable weapon to do so, laws requiring the presence of an armed police officer at every corner may make it more difficult without having to deal with the police officer first, or immigration laws may make it more difficult to reach you, and murder being illegal means I'm very likely to suffer consequences after killing you (or after failing to do so if the attempt is illegal) but if I'm in front of you with a loaded gun in my hand, what's stopping me from killing you isn't the law.

I'm not saying Tesla can't do things differently as long as they operate within the law. I'm not even arguing whether its immoral for them to do so[0]. I'm just saying that laws are in the most real sense of the word socially constructed and they're an artefact of society, not the other way around. If laws are in conflict with a society's understanding of justice, eventually the laws will change, one way or another.

[0]: It is, although I appreciate that you seem to have constructed an ethical system that isn't built around reducing suffering and increasing happiness for everyone - which is fine, of course, in terms of it being possible for your ethical system to be internally consistent. It just makes me think less of you as a human.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#129

Post by mytailorisrich »

hnbad wrote: post #128
mytailorisrich wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean "effective". This is beside the point of what a legal minimum wage is, orthogonal with negotiations through unions, and has nothing to do with liberalisation. There is no reason for Sweden not to have a legal minimum wage. From an outsider's POV this really seems to be psycho-rigid stance " no our system does not need one! " when it actually does not hurt the system or negotiations through unions at…

Literally everything you say in defense of Tesla and against the striking workers can be inversed without becoming any less true. As others have pointed out, you seem to misunderstand what laws are and what they are for. They're not special and they're not magic, they're just slightly more rigid frames padded with layers of contracts and ultimately held together by good will. To put it another way: a law can not stop…

Where did I say anything against striking workers?

I am only pointing out that this is not black and white, and that it is hypocritical to be outraged at Tesla when they are not doing anything illegal, especially when Sweden has historically refused to legislate. But I guess there is also a part of Elon-bashing here.

I don't "misunderstand what laws are", by the way, on the contrary. That's why I don't like mod rule and the replies on this here are actually worrying.

This whole thread is rather low quality, I am afraid to say... "Tesla bad" and that's it, basically.

> although I appreciate that you seem to have constructed an ethical system that isn't built around reducing suffering and increasing happiness for everyone

This has nothing to do with what I wrote and is no more than a thin-veiled ad hominem insult.

Re: Tesla threatens to bring in strikebreakers as Swedish workers strike

#130

Post by sakjur »

ben_w wrote: post #122
anovikov wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well he may simply fire all locals and bring in all-foreign staff. What will stop him? Salaries Tesla pay are sufficient for Blue Card or similar permit.

Blue Card is 1.5x gross average local salary. Rather annoyingly, googling this gives me a headline answer of "SEK 57,450 per month" that doesn't actually correspond to any of the actual results following this (many of which aren't for this year anyway). Also odd (given that it's in the news), I can't get search results telling me what Tesla is currently paying, nor what higher level of pay the union is asking for.

Downloading TM Sweden AB's fiscal report for 2022 (årsredovisning), under "Not 7" there is costs for staff and average number of staff for 2021 and 2022:

2022: 289 full-time equivalent employees, 133MSEK salaries. 2021: 220 full-time equivalent employees, 101MSEK salaries.

Both seem to come out to an average of around 38 KSEK/month (~€3250). I'd suspect the mechanics to have the lowest salary in the organization, so probably somewhat lower than that. But that's pure speculation on my behalf.

It could be a matter of coincidence due to hiring of more staff in more junior positions or so, but the lack of salary increases from year to year could be more interesting to the union (the unions typically have a percentage "mark" salary bump in the collective agreement that you're guaranteed every year). That is also speculative.

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