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Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

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Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We alway cut great minds a lot of slack. I have a mental experiment for this: imagine a man beats his wife. Terrible right? Now imagine the same man cures cancer. Well suddenly everyone is curious about the complexities of his marriage. That’s morality for most people.

Albert Einstein being a perfect example.

I was thinking of Sir Isaac Newton but yeah Einstein probably has some ghosts in his closest.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It taints the whole “woman he loved” routine as he openly acknowledged his misogyny and objectification of women throughout his life. He can’t love women so how can he love this woman?

>He can’t love women This is a false premise and an oversimplification motivated by (understandably) bitter emotions (I go into this more in another comment).

I’m only suggesting that the great mind is flawed and contradictory. He is a man of his time, of course, but just perhaps a bit too quick to settle into the advantages of being a man of significant influence.

People change and perhaps I’m being harsh. I just thought the paradox was interesting.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you’re to find good statistics on domestic abuse in the 1950s.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were only slightly higher than modern ones. Humans historically become less violent but it's very gradual.

The 1950s isn’t pre-modern.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were only slightly higher than modern ones. Humans historically become less violent but it's very gradual.

The 1950s isn’t pre-modern.

Perhaps contemporary would be a better word. I'm not a native speaker.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#125
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I understand what you wrote correctly, you only enjoy entertainment of saints? Also, when you find out later they are not, you will change your opinion? It feels a bit off to me. People are not good or bad. First of all what is good or bad depends on culture/geography. Second, every person has many good and bad treats according to any culture.

You are in agreement with the comment you're replying to. The commenter is using irony to make a point.

Somehow I felt it was too off to be serious, but it appears I still got fooled. :)

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#126
post #110

Losing his first wife was a tragedy that seems to have led Feynman down a dark personal path. Everybody likes the funny second wife divorce story - "because he did calculus all the time!" His second wife testified in court that he flew into a rage and choked her if she unwittingly interrupted his calculus. [1] She was granted a divorce due to his "extreme cruelty." [1] p. 64-65 of FBI file - https://www.muckrock.com/…

I tend to agree with "where there's smoke, there's fire," but I'm also cautious reading too much into what a single person -- in particular, an ex-lover -- has to say when forming an opinion about someone. Obviously if it's a pattern, that's another story. But I've lived through some things, and witnessed people make claims that were stronger than what was justified.

I once told my partner that there was a musician he listened to that really relished putting women down. He thought I was talking about one song, but I didn't remember enough to give details. A few weeks later, he comes back - "It's not just one song!"

He never noticed until he had the right frame of reference. It was easy to gloss over each individual instance because the songs weren't referring to him. He experienced an entirely different reality based on his perspective of existence.

There are ugly patterns in Feynman's writings about women. Not everyone has the luxury of ignoring these patterns as they read his work.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you remember what paper in particular? I would like to read the study about rates of false abuse accusations in areas with strict divorce laws.

I doubt you’re to find good statistics on domestic abuse in the 1950s.

Exactly! So we shouldn't draw any conclusions based on such statistics.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#128
post #53
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read a lot about Feynman and have never read that. Would love to see a source.

Edit: Note that I have no opinion here, just answering someone's request for a source. A cursory Google reveals... > Neither were Feynman's escapades limited to bars; more than one of his biographies have documented affairs with two married women, at least one of which caused him considerable problems.[0] Charlie Munger seems to be a source for claims that he would sleep with the wives of his undergrad students[2]. A…

I don’t condone or defend anything he did, but following some of those links back, there seems to be a game of telephone, inflating the claims slightly each time. Munger for example seems to have said he was flirty with his students wives, but not actually sleeping with them. The nude drawings of students appears to have been in the context of an official art class, and not his students.

Regardless, this behavior was clearly inappropriate and should not be tolerated at a university. It does not appear to be actually criminal or predatory, unless I am still missing something.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia says: > In many other states, especially California, the most popular allegation for divorce was cruelty (which was then unavailable in New York). For example, in 1950, wives pleaded "cruelty" as the basis for 70 percent of San Francisco divorce cases.[41] Wives would regularly testify to the same facts: their husbands swore at them, hit them, and generally treated them terribly.[41] This procedure was desc…

I'm not seeing sources that try to separate "real" cases from "false" cases in that section. Both types are included in that 70 percent figure.

The cited book provides very interesting background:

> Admissible grounds varied from state to state. [...] In the other states, the common grounds were adultery, desertion, and cruelty; but there were all sorts of state idiosyncrasies. [...] Cruelty became the grounds of choice in the twentieth century; it overtook adultery in 1922, and in 1950 accounted for almost three-fifths of all divorces. Most states recognized cruelty as a valid reason for divorce—New York was a prominent exception.

> What accounts for this outbreak of marital cruelty? Nothing. It was, in fact, an outbreak of collusion. Most "cruelty" cases were uncontested. The plaintiff (usually the wife) filed for divorce. The husband made no defense. Divorce was granted, by default. Collusive divorce had become common in the late nineteenth century; in the twentieth century, it was absolutely pervasive. In legal theory, a collusive divorce was void. Husband and wife had no right to agree to split. In practice, collusion was the rule, not the exception; and the judges all knew it. Their (implicit) motto was: don't ask, don't tell.

> The precise form of collusion did vary from state to state. It mirrored the state statute; it was, in a sense, "cheating in the shadow of the law". In California, as in most states, cruelty was the courtroom favorite. In case after case after case, the wife complained that her husband cursed her and hit her, and made her life miserable. [...] In 1921 in San Francisco, the wife was plaintiff in 70 percent of divorce cases; and she alleged cruelty in 40 percent of the cases. By 1950 the percentage of accusations of cruelty had reached 70 percent.

> In New York divorce was available, practically speaking, only for adultery. This was an extreme situation; but any and all attempts to amend the law ended in shipwreck in the legislature. The demand for divorce, however, was as strong in New York as it was elsewhere. One end-run around divorce was annulment. Annulment is a declaration that a marriage never was valid, because of some kind of fraud or other impediment; in most states, annulment was a rare beast—usually fewer than 4 percent of all dissolutions of marriage. But New York was an annulment Mecca. By 1950 there were ten counties in New York which granted more annulments than divorces; and for the state as a whole, there were two-thirds as many annulments as decrees of divorce.

> New York also developed a weird form of collusive adultery—one might even call it soft-core adultery. A man would check into a hotel, a woman (usually a blonde) would appear, together with a photographer; the photographer would take pictures of the couple, in pajamas or underwear or even naked; the woman would get her fifty-dollar fee, and lo and behold! here was evidence of adultery. The flavor of this charade is neatly captured in the title of a magazine article from 1934: "I Was the Unknown Blonde in 100 New York Divorces".

Taking the above at face value, we have strong evidence that lots of people went to major lengths to establish a legal pretext for divorce. Cruelty allegations going from 40% to 70% in one city, and apparently making similar changes elsewhere, is certainly very suspicious—does it seem likely that husbands' behavior actually changed in that way? Allegation statistics varying significantly from state to state would also be rather suspicious; the book alludes to that but doesn't give details. The cited book itself has citations for several of the numbers and the magazine article, which one could chase down if one wants more detail and confirmation.

Re: Love after life: Richard Feynman's letter to his departed wife (2017)

#130
post #22
post #2

I never knew how to square this with stories about Feynman’s sexual predation. Were these two distinct phases of his life?

It’s been easily 15 years since I read Genius: The Life and Science of Richard Feynman by by James Gleick, and probably 25 or so since I read Feynman’s own books of stories about himself. I remember lots of stories about flirtation, and very probably promiscuity , but I don’t recall sexual predation . That’s not to say it didn’t happen. I haven’t read everything there is about Feynman’s life, and I don’t remember all…

Even Einstein was flirtatious and a cheater.
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