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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#121

Post by spott »

dieselgate wrote: post #78
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...

What kind of energy density? There is energy density by volume (where it matches batteries, when you ignore all the stuff you need to keep hydrogen at 700bar safe), and energy density by weight (where it wins pretty handily against pretty much everything).

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#122

Post by downrightmike »

cracrecry wrote: post #113

There is an Oil Sector Lobby and there is an electric sector Lobby too. All Lobbies hate competition. The electric sector wants to destroy Hydrogen because it competes with them, of course, they want to destroy the seed so no tree comes out of it. Hydrogen disappearing is not going to happen, because it going to be necessary for some things, like heavy transportation. Just because clean Hydrogen is in the early stage…

Most of the hydrogen made today is made from fossil fuels, so they of course love that idea.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#123

Post by robertlagrant »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #117

One irony is that hydrogen cars are actually a better option than ICE. They're just both blown away by BEVs because batteries and supporting tech has progressed so dramatically.

A better option in what circumstance?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#124

Post by freedude »

parker_mountain wrote: post #63
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting two tons of highly toxic and flammable lithium into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Our ancestors will never believe that we were nuts enough to not only allow this, but actually legally manndate it. They will think it's an urban legend and no ancient people could have been so short-sighted and egotistical.

Fun fact: per mile driven, there are about 1/10th to 1/5th as many EV fires, as there are gas car fires. Putting ten gallons of highly toxic and flammable fuel into a car-shaped object just to commute one person a few dozen miles is quite literally insane from all practical points of view. Electric tech is marginally less crazy, and also a step forward.

That fun fact may be true, but ask any firefighter that has had to put out a lithium based car fire how fun that fact is. The lithium based fires require 12-15 times the amount of water to extinguish.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#125

Post by flkenosad »

bparsons wrote: post #62

There are good use cases for both technologies. For smaller, lighter vehicles in warmer climates, lithium batteries make a lot of sense. For heavy, long haul trucks that require minimal refueling, hydrogen fuel cell makes a lot of sense. You need to build out the infrastructure for both.

Finally, not an either/or perspective.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#126

Post by linsomniac »

What can we do to make it so that motivations are more clear around messaging? It feels like so many things are ruined because industries are so good at messaging and people are so bad and disadvantaged at recognizing misleading messaging.

I took the afternoon off work to drive around town supplying school kids doing walkouts and walking across town to the administrative buildings to protest drastic changes that were announced It just feels like so much of the system is impossible right now.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#127

Post by theshrike79 »

baq wrote: post #48
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.

_You_ don't. We do.

There are 6 over 100kW charging spots under 1km of my house. Although I don't need any of them, because I can charge where I park at 2kW all day and night.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#128

Post by DriverDaily »

dieselgate wrote: post #78
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...

Anybody who needs to run 24/7 and/or can't count on an electric grid could use hydrogen power: A logistics network, an army, public transportation, utility companies, forestry or mining...

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#129

Post by wilg »

baq wrote: post #48
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Batteries are heavy, expensive and we don’t have infrastructure to charge them at the required scale. I don’t believe hydrogen is the answer but methane cells could be… liquid energy storage is just so much more practical compared to alternatives.

Well, we have a power grid and not a hydrogen grid.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#130

Post by robertjpayne »

dclowd9901 wrote: post #110
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

Batteries go bad over a rather short period of time and are incredibly expensive too. They’re basically currently infeasible as a mode of transport without _a lot_ of trade offs. Compare that to a tank for fuel, which is comparatively minuscule in cost and basically never goes bad. I don’t think electrical is as scalable as liquid fuel and I’m not convinced it ever will be, especially if it’s continued to be made by…

Fuel definitely goes bad, at least once the storage is in vehicles. The petroleum industry keeps peddling all this FUD about how awful batteries are.

The difference is batteries can be improved (and there's a tooooon of $$$$ pouring into this problem) and they are improving. Petroleum is a dead end while batteries, solar, and electrical grids have a bright future and lost of room for growth.

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