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Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

arstechnica.com

121–130 of 233 posts

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#121
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with carbon offsets is worse than that. First, there is no real way to tell if someone was going to do something anyway. You have an existing operation which is already cost effective to modernize because the fuel savings exceed the cost, so you were going to do it anyway, but now you get to sell credits even though the modernization would have happened regardless. So you have a significant amount of pree…

I work in the industry [0]. The decarbonization game is extremely tricky. This whole notion of "were they going to do it anyway", how the heck do you build that in. And how the heck does demand happen, who wants to pay for invisible, mostly useless gas? The key question at the root of this is this: do we need to win the decarbonization game? Or can we just set down the game and walk away? To me it looks like we need…

> To me it looks like we need to win the decarbonization game to maintain a stable climate.

Given your salary depends on it, I am hardly surprised.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#122
post #34
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really match the way people are using offsets. If you buy offsets for a flight and ten years later you learn that that they were ineffective... what? The least effective offsets having the lowest price isn't a good incentive either.

I don't believe the majority of VCM offsets are being purchased by end users. Are they? I thought they're typically purchased by corporate entities to support "net zero carbon by X year" pledges. Apparently this stuff has matured a lot in the last 10 years, and I haven't been keeping pace with it. There's already a concept of "vintage" (i.e. year carbon reduction realized in), but I still don't think they're being tr…

> Apparently this stuff has matured a lot in the last 10 years

Matured is not the word I would choose.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#123

The money going towards carbon offsets would be better spent on lobbying in favor of carbon taxes, and establishing Enhanced Weathering: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_weathering

That doesn't sound profitable to me.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#124
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an acceptable conclusion. So then, what's next? We need to rapidly decarbonize the economy. Current solutions aren't working great, so how do we do it?

You have to end capitalism, and anybody taking this stuff seriously knows that, and they knew carbon offset nonsense was fraudulent the entire time. It was painfully obvious. So what's next? Another fraudulent scheme, because the only other option is socialism.

This right here. Either we collectively as a species take steps right away to correct course and achieve a sustainable now, or nature will do it for us; and the latter will occur cataclysmically. The former, too, except hopefully with less loss of life.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#125
post #98

> From project implementation until 2020, those 18 projects were expected to generate up to 89 million carbon offsets to be sold in the global carbon market. But researchers estimate that only 5.4 million of the 89 million, or 6.1 percent, would be associated with actual carbon emission reductions. It sounds like a massively fraudulent market with little actual oversight.

I think that's an acceptable conclusion. So then, what's next? We need to rapidly decarbonize the economy. Current solutions aren't working great, so how do we do it?

> I think that's an acceptable conclusion. So then, what's next? We need to rapidly decarbonize the economy. Current solutions aren't working great, so how do we do it?

In the ideal sense:

- Standardize carbon offset measurements: Proper comparisons can only be made if there's a starting point to work from. Standardizing how much X amount of carbon is offset per action (using only the lower bound to deliberately underestimate the impact of an action) would make it harder to lie about the impacts of said offsets.

- Institute high carbon taxes on coal & coal only. Expect extreme friction from coal lobbies against this, & from environmentalists for not being extreme enough. Use incrementalism as an advantage to separate coal lobbyists from the other fossil fuel giants & reassure the others that they're excluded from this measure, & let them see the can be kicked, but not how far it has been kicked.

- Further subsidize battery & renewable deployments. This MUST be made separate from the next point to reduce political friction.

- Reduce subsidies for fossil fuel explorations & extraction. Lumping this & the above point together makes it much likelier that the lobbies will try stop both measures at once. Don't give them ammunition to do so.

- Subsidize EVs & battery-based home energy storage tech even further. The rollout of cheap solar consequently leads to a worsening of the duck curve, just due to how solar energy is reliant on the sun. Smoothing out the bump from solar into a consistent line via battery tech would reduce stress on the grid for massive ramp-ups & alleviate the need for infra upgrades, which is subject to NIMBYism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

This is just off the top of my head, but the main theme is to chip away at the problem rather than finding the Killer. As tempting as it is to try & find the One Solution, such a breakthrough is heavily reliant on luck, whereas the other more relies on consistent effort than luck itself.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#126
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this comment. It's possible they're doing exactly their job but that it's not a job we need done. The job we need done is rapid decarbonization. So how do we do that?

That’s the million-dollar question, isn’t it? I feel like the biggest obstacle here is that any invocation of shared sacrifice or giving up forms of convenience, even fairly minor ones, prompts howls of indignation. Maybe we’re just doing some things we can’t do going forward even if it was comfortable to be able to do so.

Stopping doing things we're doing today is one possibility. How are you going to do that?

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#127
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say more about this! Let's say you had $100B to build better climate models over the next 5 years. Where would you spend it? My general sense is the models are good enough to tell us that a) things are headed in the wrong direction and b) we're really far off from a solution. Generally in agreement with you but I haven't researched deeply about what's needed on more modeling and how to prioritize.

You need at least two completely independent teams who don't see each other's code so you'll have a rough idea how much developer bias is responsible for the signal. Right now they are all copying code from each other, a single error in these and all the climate models are effected. Replication here should mean different scientists writing different code arriving at the same estimates. It needs to be open source, and…

I want this to happen, how can I help?

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#128
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the industry [0]. The decarbonization game is extremely tricky. This whole notion of "were they going to do it anyway", how the heck do you build that in. And how the heck does demand happen, who wants to pay for invisible, mostly useless gas? The key question at the root of this is this: do we need to win the decarbonization game? Or can we just set down the game and walk away? To me it looks like we need…

> To me it looks like we need to win the decarbonization game to maintain a stable climate. Given your salary depends on it, I am hardly surprised.

Yes there's a potential conflict there. I'm curious to hear from your perspective:

1. Do we need to maintain a stable climate?

2. Do we need to win the decarbonization game to do so? And if not, how else do we maintain a stable climate?

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#129
post #84

Carbon offsets never made sense from the start. Obviously just a way to continue polluting, maintain a clean image, and line somebody’s pockets.

Then how do we effectively decarbonize the planet quickly? That's the need.

Surprise: We don’t!

I don’t know if it’ll happen in my lifetime but at some point we’re going to change our thinking from “fixing climate change” to dealing with the effects as best we can. The sooner the better IMO, even though it’s going to be a painful transition to be sure.

Re: Study: Carbon offsets aren’t doing their job, overstate impact

#130
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how do we effectively decarbonize the planet quickly? That's the need.

Surprise: We don’t! I don’t know if it’ll happen in my lifetime but at some point we’re going to change our thinking from “fixing climate change” to dealing with the effects as best we can. The sooner the better IMO, even though it’s going to be a painful transition to be sure.

I hear you, I appreciate the clarification in how you're thinking about this.
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