I've a hard time taking htmx serious for building a modern web app/site. It makes is impossible to build features that users have come to expect: * Faceted search with configurable filters, like filter date on before, between or after, but only show the filter if the user wants it. * Configure result view with different columns or even different views like maps or drawing something on a canvas like charts. You can ma…
You don't have to use "pure" HTMX, you can mix and match where appropriate I'm sure.
Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
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Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#122If you think htmx is cool, check out _hyperscript https://hyperscript.org/ . Made by the same people, available with htmx I believe. After seeing _hyperscript, it looks like they may have invented that first, and a lot of people's heads exploded, so they decided to try to make a "gateway drug" to sneakily introduce _hyperscript, and came up with htmx.
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#123It's so odd to live long enough and see the steady pipeline of "look at this much simpler way of doing web apps, just write HTML, not like the previous complex way" projects, which then turn into the previous complex way as the eyes turn towards the next "simple way of doing web apps, just write HTML...". Angular and React started this way on the frontend, while ASP and PHP started this way on the backend (of course…
Don't forget Polymer, whose main marketing was that it's the tech behind... McD's menu screens. It turned into lit html, I have no idea what the state of that is now, haven't heard from it for a while now.
I still have hope that frontend will eventually turn back to web components now that HTML templates, Custom Elements, Shadow DOM, and ES Modules are fully adopted. One of the problems is that this stack is foreign even to professional web devs that hail from React land. It's weird because it's native browser tech adopted by the W3C and painstakingly built into the browsers. Maybe it picks up after someone rewrites the react-dom internals to support web components and adds a new tooling layer over it?
It's not bad tech and web components are built into the platform of the web now so they're not really going anywhere...
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#124Great news. I have had good success and a rewarding experience using htmx the past year. It has been so great in tandem with Clojure using hiccup for SSR. Once htmx clicks for you, you are almost left stunned by how simple and flexible it is. You can't believe that this isn't how HTML evolved to as a hypermedia. It becomes very obvious that this is how web development should have evolved. I hope someday that what htm…
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Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#125I think we need an impressive "made with htmx" example that will trail blaze an new class of web experiences. People have typecast htmx as something to use for simple use cases that dont "warrant" getting out the serious guns. There is something to that, but it is limiting. Htmx and related 'back-to-the-server' approaches are a distinct category that could have been explored much earlier but for various reasons isnt
I think you misunderstand HTMX. It’s the revival of an old class of apps in a backend agnostic way. It’s not doing anything new, or anything that warrants a “new class of apps.” It’s a way to build hypermedia (read: content) focused sites. Classic sites like shopping catalogs, forums, admin front ends, blogs, etc.
It’s just jquery/liveview/turbolinks, but backend agnostic and without needing you to maintain much (or any) frontend js logic.
Once you need heavy interactivity (think google docs or figma) it stops providing much benefit.
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#126Coming from the Unity world, I find frontend development on the web weird as hell. When accounting for the limited amount of time and mental load people have, wouldn't the best bang for your buck be doing react/vue/js?
Arguably you’ve got to learn HTML, so why then add learning React/etc on top of that? HTMX is more limited, but also _radically_ simpler to modern frontend development.
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Off topic, but: > The right to erasure is also known as ‘the right to be forgotten’. https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-re...
no such right exists; that would be like the right to rob with impunity of course clever demagogues and rhetoricians can write such things into legislation, just as they can write legislation that claims you have no right to speak freely, but that just makes the legislation incorrect, like the famous legislation declaring pi to be exactly 3
No, it's the same kind of thing as having your records "sealed", to not let a past deed haunt you.
Not even sure what kind of logic jumps one has to make to equate something like this to "robbing with inpunity". For starters the punishment to robbing isn't remembrance of your robbing, it's jail time or fine etc. And, fun fact, the aforementioned "records being sealed" can even be applied to someone who e.g. did a robbery or other crime as a juvenile.
Now, since a "right to be forgotten" does explicitly exist in EU and other jurisdictions, I'm not sure what denying its existance means.
If you mean "there's no such right" as a thing in itself, outside laws and treaties and jurisdictions, then the same is true for any right.
No right exists by itself, as if handed to us by nature, not even the right to not be murdered. All rights are based on people deciding some kind of assurances are good to have and putting them into laws and treaties and such.
And all rights are only granted and protected based on power relationships and agreement, not based on some (non-existent) natural truths existing independenty of them in the cosmos. We might call some "self-evident" and "natural" but those are just fancy words. In actual history almost all of our so-called "self-evident/natural" rights have been unrecognized (even in quite recent history), and societies considered this just fine. In fact in some cases, actually giving the rights would be considered the violation of the natural law.
>of course clever demagogues and rhetoricians can write such things into legislation
Demagogue is someone who "who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument". Rhetorician is a public speaker who is good in persuading people with words. Neither have much to do with such legislation being passed (nor was it the work of some demagogues).
It's simply about the internet making anything somebody does into a permanent record [1], and this being understood as not always necessarily being for the benefit of society.
E.g. what some edgy/troubled teenager wrote on his social media account in his teens shouldn't necessarily be part of his "permanent record" for employers and others to judge them by decades afterwards. And in the past, it wasn't, unless it made the press (and even then, it was easily lost due to it being in print and ephemeral), or was deemed necessary so by the state (e.g. to register as a sex offender). Just because technology now makes it being a permanent record trivial doesn't mean we should be OK with it. We should be masters of technology, not slaves to it.
[1] Doesn't matter if something like that could be accomplished in the past too - what matters is that it's far more prevalent, has several orders of magnitude more scale of the kind of stuff that can be kept, and is easier to achieve, and trivial to search with the advent of the internet. This changes the impact of this to society a lot.
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
nobody has the right to be forgotten nothing you say can be unsaid; therefore speak judiciously https://uuliveoak.org/Story%20ideas%20-%20service%20or%20cla... > “Now Yankel,” the Rabbi began “go back through the town and collect all of the feathers. Put them back into the pillow and bring the fully stuffed pillow back to me.” > “But Rabbi!!!” Yankel burst out. “That will be impossible. Even as I was walking away fro…
EU Law Disagrees. Feel free to Geoblock the entire market if you disagree. Many small news sites in the states do this.
If I’m an EU citizen accessing a site from outside the EU, don’t I still have the right to be forgotten?
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
nobody has the right to be forgotten nothing you say can be unsaid; therefore speak judiciously https://uuliveoak.org/Story%20ideas%20-%20service%20or%20cla... > “Now Yankel,” the Rabbi began “go back through the town and collect all of the feathers. Put them back into the pillow and bring the fully stuffed pillow back to me.” > “But Rabbi!!!” Yankel burst out. “That will be impossible. Even as I was walking away fro…
EU Law Disagrees. Feel free to Geoblock the entire market if you disagree. Many small news sites in the states do this.
Re: Htmx is part of the GitHub Accelerator
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
Had an heated debate with someone that was really angry at everything react, for good reasons, but being oblivious that htmx can't replace client side logic. React hype + backend crowd I guess.
as a primarily backend dev I really don't see the appeal here. So now I need to make endpoints for every little UI element that I want to be updated by user interactions? And somehow keep it styled and matching all of the UI elements rendered on the frontend? No thanks, I'll just give you data and you can present it however you please.
No. Htmx supports extracting a subset of received HTML and merging it with the current page.
So, for a typical form, you _could_ do a request to validate the entire form then extract the relevant error message for the input field that triggered said request.
This would re-use most code of the actual form submit endpoint except it _only_ does the validation.
> And somehow keep it styled and matching all of the UI elements rendered on the frontend?
When using Htmx, the backend would typically own the frontend. So the styles and UI elements are already "matched" as it were.
> No thanks, I'll just give you data and you can present it however you please.
This makes sense when there are multiple frontends and/or consumers of the API. When there is exactly one API consumer, and that API consumer is the frontend, Htmx can save a lot of time by reducing the overall complexity of the project.