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Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

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Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#121

Post by redwall_hp »

aaomidi wrote: post #32
jtreminio wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

I can not stand people who love setting weird standards on others. Music? They didn’t say hello to you when giving you your delivery? Why on earth do you care.

Because they culturally see anyone "beneath them" as NPCs that exist to serve them, and anything other than perfect servility is seen as a personal insult.

American customer service mentality is supremely fucked up. I actively avoid businesses that more actively force employees to interact with customers in certain artificial ways, because some are even worse than the norm.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#122

Post by giraffe_lady »

legitster wrote: post #101

I'm always confused by the framing of these articles. Are companies supposed to help unions form against them? If they supported unionization efforts, why not just save everyone the time and money and listen to employee demands without one? It's like, you can love your wife as much as anyone, but you are not expected to help her get her own divorce attorney. Yeah, companies are going to be against unionizing. That's…

Like calling up the pinkertons and paying them millions is just the inevitable reflex of any fully evolved corporation lmao. Natural as breathing is for you and me.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#123

Post by deviantbit »

bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

I've not had the same experience w/ UPS drivers. I had a lawsuit with UPS for them hitting my gate. They're in such a hurry they can't let it finish opening. After 6 years they finally paid the $14k to replace it. I'm still trying to get them to pay the attorney fees that were awarded.

Amazon drivers stop, wait for it to open, and drive down the drive at a reasonable speed. Amazon takes a picture after they have left the items.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#124

Post by BaseballPhysics »

phpisthebest wrote: post #113
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is such a weird American fixation. Here, take my money and hand me my burger and receipt, there's no need for a conversation or a fake smile. You don't care how my day is going, I don't really care about yours. Let's keep this transaction professional and solely focused on this exchange of money for burger. As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I…

>>is there a social/cultural difference in expectations of the interaction with people around us For me, that is why I am glad automation is decimating the service sector. for the first time in years I was traveling so i decided to go into a fast food place so I could stretch my legs. I walked in, Ordered my meal on a Automated Kiosk, no one even around to talk my order verbally. Then when my order was ready someone…

And I'm glad that, for those more introverted among us and/or find those social conventions difficult or tiring, that you have that option!

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#125

Post by mschuster91 »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #118
mschuster91 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need laws to enforce this change or behavior, you just need the Amazon drivers to show solidarity and unionize. They can demand (and get!) far more change than the government will ever legislate. The problem is, with jobs that do not require more than a driver's license and the ability to read names you are a fungible cog in the giant machinery of Amazon. It's a job that virtually everyone with a half wor…

Amazon won't find other people in this labor market--the service sector has been absolutely on fire with hiring, employment, and wage growth now and throughout the pandemic. Letting COVID rip has killed and disabled millions of workers and put tons of pressure on service jobs.

Amazon maybe not, but their contractors? If in doubt they'll just use undocumented people like farms do all the time. They got caught multiple times doing that in Germany and Austria, no reason to believe the situation in the US with massively more pervasive labor exploitation would be different.

It's funny, Amazon always says "we expect that our partners comply with laws and regulations", and yet they absolutely have to know that their "partners" have to skirt the law to survive on their extremely low package rates. Hell, they probably have enough data from the delivery smartphones to be able to easily detect labor law violations (overtime beyond 10h, no / not enough long breaks).

[1] https://www.ln-online.de/lokales/stormarn/bad-oldesloe-neun-...

[2] https://rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/moenchengladbach/moenchengl...

[3] https://winfuture.de/news,114164.html

[4] https://www.tonight.de/koeln/schwarzarbeit-bei-amazon-razzia...

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#126

Post by BaseballPhysics »

altairprime wrote: post #99
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, Courtesy with customers is forced on them? My god! The next thing you'll tell me they're expected not to curse at their co-workers, too! What kind of world is this?! > it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers. Once again, and as I already said in the very text…

“Unsmiling” is not “unprofessional”. Smiling isn’t about courtesy, respect, or professionalism. It’s a US cultural habit that is not universal in the rest of the world, ingrained into service industries, in service of demands that workers subsume all emotion in favor of providing “service with a smile”. Covid masking protocols were looked upon fondly by service industry workers specifically because they didn’t have t…

> “Unsmiling” is not “unprofessional".

And now we're back to cultural norms and expectations, and there's no point in arguing about something so very subjective.

The original complaint was about "weird" Americans and my entire point was that it's not that weird, it's just different.

And now we're just around and back where we started.

I've offered my perspective and there's little point in repeating it again. If you want to know how I'd respond, just go read my first comment on this thread.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#127

Post by appletrotter »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #83
Zircom wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a Canadian cousin over here, if you can't tell the difference between a smile/a polite "Hi, how can I help you?"/a "have a nice day", and an actual conversation involving smalltalk, then you clearly don't know about what you're criticising. That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conve…

> That's literally his point, the whole friendly-service-with-a-smile thing is forced on them by their managers/corporate, Courtesy with customers is forced on them? My god! The next thing you'll tell me they're expected not to curse at their co-workers, too! What kind of world is this?! > it's not from a sincere desire to have an actual conversation with customers. Once again, and as I already said in the very text…

Here’s a counter anecdote.

> Another issue was the smiling. Walmart requires its checkout people to flash smiles at customers after bagging their purchases. Plastic bags, plastic junk, plastic smiles. But because the German people don’t usually smile at total strangers, the spectacle of Walmart employees grinning like jackasses not only didn’t impress consumers, it unnerved them.

https://medium.com/the-global-millennial/why-walmart-failed-...

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#128

Post by marcus0x62 »

jtreminio wrote: post #28
bluedino wrote: post #12

I'm always amazed at the stark differences between UPS drivers, and Amazon drivers. UPS trucks are always clean. They follow the rules of the road. The drivers wear neat uniforms, they walk on the sidewalks, they're polite, they're just professionals held to a higher standard. Then there are Amazon drivers. They park blocking half the road, music blasting, the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a mont…

> music blasting Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work. > the vans usually look like they haven't been washed in a month Good. Washing work vehicles so that they are always sparkling seems like a waste of resources. > Reminds me of fast food employee who simply hands your meal out the window, no greeting, no thank you, no smile This is such a weird American fixation. Here, tak…

> Far be it from me to say a driver can't listen to music while they are at work.

I have no problem with anyone listening to music while they work.

I just don’t want to be forced to listen to their music while they are parked across the street from my house that I’m inside.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#129

Post by cassepipe »

notyourwork wrote: post #66
coldtea wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is there something "weird" about that? No, absolutely not, and you can put down the superiority complex. There is something weird though. Getting service from those minimum wage workers is not enough: people also demand their fake pleasure to serve and sympathy.

Humans are all humans. Irrespective of their income level. Not sure what minimum wage has to do with whether or not being polite and pleasant conversation is exchanged.

Well if I don't like my job and I am only doing it in order to feed myself being nice to you when I am tired and want to go home and it's only 15:00 is work.

I get that some people are naturally nice and some others are not and find excuses not to be but all of cashiers in the supermarket I go to give you tired unconvincing robotic "Good morning/evening" and "Goodbye" and you can tell they are tired of it. Also they have to.

Would I be nice in a restaurant as a worker where people come to spend a special moment ? Yes, and I expect to be paid accordingly as it is part of my work. Serving people waiting in line in a fast food, will I be hostile ? No. Would I care about conversational etiquette serving people waiting in a fast food ? Hell no, I am not a smile delivery machine.

In the end it's all about stepping out of yourself and consider the reality the person in front of you is facing. Of course, if you've ever had to do a shitty job, that may help you.

Re: Amazon doesn't 'employ' drivers, but hired firms to prevent them from unionizing

#130

Post by somsak2 »

snoman wrote: post #51
Analemma_ wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because courts are supposed to see through flimsy fictions like this. These companies are not in an ordinary vendor/customer relationship: they are controlled completely by Amazon, they do not and cannot serve customers other than Amazon, their conditions and working hours are set by Amazon, etc. They are Amazon subsidiaries in all but name, and their treatment by the law should reflect that.

Tell that to every government contractor. Many companies (that I'd wager you wouldn't take issue with) exist due to the contracts they have with a single government organization.

that kind of setup is actually fairly rare -- most of the work done in this sector is by large companies that have tens to hundreds of concurrent contracts from various government agencies. speaking from experience
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