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Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

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Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#121

Post by suprgeek »

Excuse me for not being cut up about how the BigPharma companies will be pulling in a few less dollars. Thinking about some of the corrupt and downright unethical practices employed by these companies - this would almost seem like just payback.

- They use Drug trials in lightly regulated developing countries to get FDA approvals for medicines. There was a famous case in India last year I think where 10-12 children died due to an experimental vaccine. The company involved was one of the biggest vaccine manufacturers in US. That case got hushed up quick.

- Drugs that get banned in US/Europe get dumped in Developing countries where the science/regulation may not have caught up yet. So even when the deadly consequences are known, these companies push dangerous medicines.

- Medical Reps employed by these companies routinely pressure doctors to over-prescribe expensive medicines. for a uneducated public this ends up costing them more for the same effects.

Against the backdrop of these practices an occasional such judgement is indeed good news against these companies.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#122

Post by crusso »

Produce wrote: post #100
crusso wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they lower the price drastically in India and then are accused of gouging their customers in other countries? When they lower the price of the drug in India, a gray market arises that resells the drugs to other countries. The presence of the gray market creates yet more opportunities for scam artists to sell fake versions of the drug, creating yet more victims. My point is that this isn't as cut and dry of an…

Human lives are at stake, there's nothing more cut and dry than that. We need to stop trying to make our reality fit our models and start adapting our models to fit reality. This whole business is backwards.

Human lives are at stake if we screw up the drive to discover new drugs that will save future lives.

Imagine if you had eliminated Bayer's incentive for even creating this cancer-saving drug in the first place. How many lives would you have ended prematurely? Imagine all the new drug research that depends upon Bayer's initial research that will save yet more lives.

Like I said, it's not so cut and dry. The pharmaceutical industry has had quantifiable and demostrable success at a level that is almost unparalleled in history. But your claim is that it's backwards.

I think your statement is inherently backwards. The "reality" is that the pharmaceutical industry produces something that society has found to be extraordinarily valuable. The people I see warping models that don't reflect reality are the ones that disregard the cost of keeping the pharmaceutical rate of discovery going.

I'd love to see improvements to the industry, but "human lives are at stake! It's all backwards!" along with the "senior management should be held accountable" just don't seem to be statements that head is a direction of improvement.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#123

Post by tomjen3 »

danssig wrote: post #8
corin_ wrote: post #5

I think few people would argue that drug companies' prices are reasonable, and when it comes to life vs. death I no longer care much about the "they're a business, they're allowed to make a profit" line - of course it's still true, and of course they are, but there's a (subjective) line between "making a good profit" and killing people through greed. That said, what pricing would be fair? When people claim that these…

> I no longer care much about the "they're a business, they're allowed to make a profit" line - of course it's still true, and of course they are, I disagree here. Pure laissez faire capitalism works no better than pure communism or socialism. You need a mix of both to have a functioning economy and IMO it should be pretty clear at this point that health care works best (cheapest and most effective) on the socialism…

>I disagree here. Pure laissez faire capitalism works no better than pure communism or socialism.

Relevant citation please.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#124

Post by tomjen3 »

vineetdhanawat wrote: post #6

"The Bayer price of Rs 34,11,898 per year ($69,000) is more than 41 times the projected average per capita income for India in 2012, shattering any measure of affordability." This is good enough for any govt to act so and rightly done as well! Also "6% royalty on net sales every quarter to Bayer" that isnt all unfair

Bayer is in it to make money, so presumably the reason the Indian government forced this deal is that Bayer would lose money under it.

So no, it isn't fair.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#125

Post by tomjen3 »

Produce wrote: post #100
crusso wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they lower the price drastically in India and then are accused of gouging their customers in other countries? When they lower the price of the drug in India, a gray market arises that resells the drugs to other countries. The presence of the gray market creates yet more opportunities for scam artists to sell fake versions of the drug, creating yet more victims. My point is that this isn't as cut and dry of an…

Human lives are at stake, there's nothing more cut and dry than that. We need to stop trying to make our reality fit our models and start adapting our models to fit reality. This whole business is backwards.

You have made a series of statements, but they don't follow logically at all.

Yes human lives are at stake (but then they always are), yes our models should follow reality as closely as we can if they are to give any useful predictions.

But what do you mean the business is backwards? Surely they are trying to make money.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#126

Post by JunkDNA »

nknight wrote: post #56
JunkDNA wrote: post #36

I worked in the drug R&D business for over 8 years. I still follow the industry closely. Some things always get lost in these discussions. First, manufacturing an existing drug is absurdly cheap. Modern industrial chemistry ensures this for all small molecule drugs (note that this is not the same case for the "biologics" which are often fiendishly difficult to make). Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer…

> You don't need to be an industry expert to grok that those numbers are wildly unsustainable. Tell you what. When these companies stop being the most profitable in America, or even just when their EPS starts declining, I'll believe you.

The reason the EPS hasn't taken a hit is because these companies aren't stupid. If they can't bring in more money by selling new products, they cut costs instead. Pharmas have been laying off huge numbers of research scientists and slashing their sales forces in record numbers. If you follow the industry, it seems like a major Pharma site is closing completely every few months. In the short-term, this props up the numbers, but the day of reckoning is still going to come.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#127

Post by crusso »

jbooth wrote: post #102
crusso wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the government then picks "successful drugs" and hands out massive amounts of money to those companies based on the definition of success as determined by politicians, bureaucrats, and lobbyists. Sounds like a nonstarter to me.

I'm not advocating for the proposal necessarily, but it's worth pointing out that a solution could be all kinds of bad yet still better than the mess we have today.

I don't agree with that.

We could really screw up an industry that has been phenomenally successful at producing drugs that everyone agrees have provided incomparable and vital life-saving solutions.

We should be extremely sober and careful about messing with it and mindful of our ability to destroy the benefits that we already get today. I've seen too many comments in this thread along the lines of "They make too much money" or "The Government should take over the industry" or "Something radical needs to be done right away because 'lives are at stake'".

Statements and positions like those set off my warning alarms.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#128

Post by makmanalp »

Alex3917 wrote: post #108
JunkDNA wrote: post #36

I worked in the drug R&D business for over 8 years. I still follow the industry closely. Some things always get lost in these discussions. First, manufacturing an existing drug is absurdly cheap. Modern industrial chemistry ensures this for all small molecule drugs (note that this is not the same case for the "biologics" which are often fiendishly difficult to make). Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer…

> Almost all the cost in a drug is the manufacturer recouping R&D costs. Actually that's not true. Big pharma spends twice as much on advertising as they do on R&D: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.ht... They also spend a significant amount of money on government fines due to corrupt practices (i.e. killing people). They are now the single most corrupt industry, paying significantly more fine…

I'll play devil's advocate: Marijuana users pay fines too, are they also corrupt and immoral? How about drivers who drive at 80km/h on a highway that is 95% 80km/h and 5% 50km/h which was obviously set up to trap people into paying fees? How do you know the fees that big pharma pays are not because of similar over-oppressive laws designed to make the government money?

Edit: Well, I'm a moron for talking before reading. Scratch that.

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#129

Post by carbocation »

Produce wrote: post #105
nikcub wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for some reason the placebo effect is getting stronger and more drugs are failing in stage II and III against sugar: http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo...

I'm honestly gobsmacked that our model of health and physiology is so primitive that it doesn't use the most widely available treatment as a first line approach, which, as you point out, is the placebo effect. Why are so many resources being wasted on developing new chemicals when the brain can seemingly perform the same functions with nothing? I get that for a lot of things you need a physical intervention, but shou…

Every time I read a post like yours, I think "Do you really want to treat HIV with a placebo?" But I know that's an uncharitable reading of your position. Which diseases do you propose be treated with placebo primarily?

Re: Indian Government uses special powers to slash cancer drug price by 97%

#130

Post by scq »

Produce wrote: post #105
nikcub wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for some reason the placebo effect is getting stronger and more drugs are failing in stage II and III against sugar: http://www.wired.com/medtech/drugs/magazine/17-09/ff_placebo...

I'm honestly gobsmacked that our model of health and physiology is so primitive that it doesn't use the most widely available treatment as a first line approach, which, as you point out, is the placebo effect. Why are so many resources being wasted on developing new chemicals when the brain can seemingly perform the same functions with nothing? I get that for a lot of things you need a physical intervention, but shou…

Because people will find out it's a placebo, and it will stop working.
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