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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#121

Post by tlogan »

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want.

But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment.

The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll say the numbers are wrong, or focus on wedge issues like transgender, guns, but they're not going to do anything on hard issues like this one.

Does anyone have ideas on what we should do? Should we make drugs illegal again and force people into rehab? Should we require drug tests for homeless people to receive government help like SF CAAP payments?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#122

Post by [deleted] »

Alupis wrote: post #28
kelnos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's exactly true. I do agree with you that some people will start using because they lose the fear of being caught, though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is. Either way, there are also undoubtedly people with substance abuse problems who are afraid to get help due to the possibility of incarceration. Removing that fear can lead to more people getting into treatment…

> though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is Several states have legalized marijuana, and surprise, marijuana usage is at an all-time high (no pun intended). People who would have never tried it before now do so because the stigma is gone, and it's trivial to get. This part is always lost on the "legalize everything" crowd. While marijuana might be relatively benign, other drugs are…

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#123

Post by minsc_and_boo »

morkalork wrote: post #57
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without legal sales, opiate users get trash street drugs that vary anywhere between unsafe and catastrophically dangerous. Furthermore, there's absolutely none of the benefits like being able to encourage them to keep their used needles in sharps containers like you might be able to do, if they had to drop off the full ones before they got their next fix. We don't get the reduction in violence we'd see from legal sal…

Without legal sales, cartels will keep doing cartel things. Also where will money for treatment programs come from? It will always be at risk of being cut by fiscally conservative governments, vs legal sales that can be taxed to fund amelioration efforts.

Even with legal sales, there are still black markets for drugs, as is evident with marijuana: https://apnews.com/article/business-california-los-angeles-m...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#124

Post by morkalork »

treeman79 wrote: post #96
morkalork wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without legal sales, cartels will keep doing cartel things. Also where will money for treatment programs come from? It will always be at risk of being cut by fiscally conservative governments, vs legal sales that can be taxed to fund amelioration efforts.

Perhaps guard the boarders so not nearly so much is crossing. Would also help stop human trafficking. Just a thought.

Are they unguarded right now? Your casually sarcastic "just a thought" makes it sound like everyone else is an idiot for not doing something obvious. Or are you suggesting building a magnificant wall?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#125

Post by anotherhue »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I suggest the drug user equivalent of an insane asylum. If you've shown you're a danger to yourself and/or others you get a place in a retreat/monastery/rehab centre/prison island where you get the care you need.

Fraught with opportunities for abuse but not arguably more than the current situation and at least the rest of us can have our public spaces back.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#126

Post by seanmcdirmid »

chefandy wrote: post #97
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Portugal was famously very successful at drug decriminalization It isn't that famously successful at all, at least in Portugal. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/07/07/portugal-dru...

Excerpt from that article: " Experts argue that drug policy focused on jail time is still more harmful to society than decriminalization. While the slipping results here suggest the fragility of decriminalization’s benefits, they point to how funding and encouragement into rehabilitation programs have ebbed. The number of users being funneled into drug treatment in Portugal, for instance, has sharply fallen, going fr…

That is just one perspective from the article, not a consensus, and definitely nothing that could qualify as famous, and even then the argument is along the lines of "It was successful until we stop dumping lots of money into it."

That reminds of how Salt Lake City recently found out the same thing with its success in curing homelessness. The problem never ends.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#127

Post by nemo44x »

71a54xd wrote: post #107

I recently visited Portland and is was shocking. Sad because aside from stunning homelessness and crime out in the open it's actually a beautiful quirky city. 1br luxury apts / condos are well designed and reasonably priced. Restaraunts and culture are incredible and feel deeply grounded in community - a far cry from what Austin (my home town) now considers "weird" or cool. I'd live there in a second if the state / c…

The activists make a living on it though. There are massive funds allocated for these programs that don't solve the problems but rather manage them. In fact, a larger customer base will only increase their funding.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#128

Post by TheCoelacanth »

Alupis wrote: post #28
kelnos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's exactly true. I do agree with you that some people will start using because they lose the fear of being caught, though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is. Either way, there are also undoubtedly people with substance abuse problems who are afraid to get help due to the possibility of incarceration. Removing that fear can lead to more people getting into treatment…

> though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is Several states have legalized marijuana, and surprise, marijuana usage is at an all-time high (no pun intended). People who would have never tried it before now do so because the stigma is gone, and it's trivial to get. This part is always lost on the "legalize everything" crowd. While marijuana might be relatively benign, other drugs are…

Is the stigma going away because it's legal or is it being legalized because the stigma is going away?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#129

Post by sniglom »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

For other possibly dangerous things in society there are things like taking a license and renewing that license. Perhaps that should be a requirement for buying hard drugs where it's legal.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#130

Post by antisyzygy »

tlogan wrote: post #121

I used to strongly support making drugs legal. I thought: this is a free country, you should be able to do what you want. But what I've seen in San Francisco has made me think differently. Most people who use drugs eventually end up not being able to live like normal adults. And no one willingly goes to get help or treatment. The problem will stick around because politicians care more about how things look. They'll s…

I think we're missing part of the equation there.

Decriminalization isn't legalization. Legalization would mean controlling purity, and strength where the drug is licensed to be sold.

Marijuana legalization hasn't lead to any major problems. People don't even bother getting it on the black market anymore where it is legal. They go for what's convenient.

Beyond that simply throwing people in prison doesn't mean that we reduced the number of drug addicts. It just means you don't see them anymore.

Decriminalization actually would mean you see more of them out on the streets because they're not being locked away in prison.

Drugs will always be a part of the human experience. People will continue to use them whether it's legal or not.

The other side of it is most cities don't spend much money on harm reduction strategies or treatment options because of the stigma associated with drug users. Tax payers look at them as subhuman and don't do the math.

It costs more to let a drug addict run around town stealing and breaking things, or getting sick and going to the ER, than it does to mandate they spend some time in a State funded mental hospital.

Prisons also cost a lot. It costs a full time job's worth of money ~35k to imprison 1 person per year.

Not only did you take a potential worker out of the work force, but now you're sinking a full time jobs worth of money into keeping them in prison.

For a murderer, that seems worth it because they literally cost the world a full time worker and maybe more. But for a homeless drug addict it really doesn't seem worth it to me.

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