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Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

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Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#121

Post by boffinAudio »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #97
throwaway93 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries would be vazal states like Belarus in that situation

This is outright silly - russia is structurally incapable of sustaining many sectors of economy. Russian businessmen are routinely forced to flee the country or tortured in prison. The first thing anyone in Russia does, if they’ve made money, is they buy real estate in Europe. The vassal-ish relationship would not be functional, it would not work for Russians themselves. Nor is there are reason to believe Russia woul…

There are literally no responses to this idea that aren't kneejerk reactionary agitprop.

Clearly, nobody has really thought about this concept sufficiently well enough to understand its extensive merits...

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#122

Post by pas »

t8sr wrote: post #46

Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance. For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems…

Countries doesn't have to be on the cutting-bleeding edge of innovation, what they need is to have sane tax laws to keep some of the economic surplus at home.

That said, yes, the startup scene in the EU is ridiculous, both investors and startups are subpar. There's too much nepotism and cronyism, entrenched interests, and other barriers to adoption for most products and services, and there's absolutely not enough capital for doing proper R&D, marketing and building a sustainable revenue stream.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#123

Post by FirmwareBurner »

hulitu wrote: post #11
code-blooded wrote: post #9

I moved from the US to Europe a year ago and I think articles like this don't capture quality of life in Europe well. Just think about healthier food, walkable cities, great public transportation, safety, free education and healthcare. The way I see it, life in Europe is less stressful and more enjoyable than in the US. Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, but in my opinion that doesn't…

> Having less money translates into having a smaller house or a car, It is more like no house and no car. Prices of cars increased with 50 % .

>Prices of cars increased with 50 %

So has real estate.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#124

Post by FirmwareBurner »

BillyTheKing wrote: post #64

There's a significant issue in that innovation isn't always at the forefront in Europe. The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions. Tbh this lack of innovative thinking is quickly becoming a pretty severe problem. I was visiting a med island recently with both Americans and Europeans, it was evident how wide the income gap was becoming. The American members of our gro…

>The primary focus seems to be maintaining the status quo, particularly safeguarding pensions.

Pretty much yeah, but is it a surprise that people vote to keep their cushy standards of living from the past?

Sure, none of those voters cares that the economic landscape has changed since the boomer times when Europeans companies ruled thew world and brought in the most profits and tax revenue, which allowed easy funding of the generous welfare system we enjoy, except that now we're not producing the same amount of money to still afford this lifestyle, so something will have to give, since the current trajectory seems to be ever increasing taxes on labor to fund welfare, while economic prosperity and competitiveness declines.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#125

Post by t8sr »

polotics wrote: post #108
t8sr wrote: post #46

Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance. For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems…

You seem to be under the impression that companies are things that exist inside of countries. I put it to you that, except for mafia led places where the rule of law doesn't exist (cough, Russia... but not only) companies are quite separate entities.

This isn't Cyberpunk 2077. The US reaps huge benefits from having companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft subject to their laws and regulatory oversight, and owned by their capital. This is why lobbying is such a profitable business.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#126

Post by pl-94 »

Mat3777 wrote: post #2

How poor will we get if you add the green transition to the Ukrainian war?

Hard to say as the green transition is poorly defined. However, lack of transition is much easier to define and to evaluate. According to a recent French government report [1], the cost of non action is significantly higher than transitioning to a net zero GHG economy by 2050.

[1] - Rapport Pisani-Mahfouz https://www.strategie.gouv.fr/publications/incidences-econom...

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#127

Post by t8sr »

pas wrote: post #122
t8sr wrote: post #46

Most new GDP growth since the 90s has and will continue to come from capturing new industries, like large scale web tech, genetic technology, space flight and modern investment finance. For all of these industries, you need a critical mass of specialists and capital, and so they can only be captured by very large companies. (Although SMBs can survive in some parts of the value chain, which is where Switzerland seems…

Countries doesn't have to be on the cutting-bleeding edge of innovation, what they need is to have sane tax laws to keep some of the economic surplus at home. That said, yes, the startup scene in the EU is ridiculous, both investors and startups are subpar. There's too much nepotism and cronyism, entrenched interests, and other barriers to adoption for most products and services, and there's absolutely not enough cap…

I don't agree. If Europe stops having pharma companies, then whoever does have them can dictate prices. If we don't have chip foundries, then we depend on the US and China for telecommunications, and need to live with their standards and their roadmaps. If we don't have investors, then all our new companies end up owned by Americans and relegated to a back office.

Being the place where the modern world is designed means you get a say in how it runs. If we give that up, it'll be the yanks' world - we'll just live in it.

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#128

Post by gfedtbyby »

boffinAudio wrote: post #118
gfedtbyby wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And that is why its not happening .. No that's not why it's happening. US had nothing against stronger integration between the EU and Russia in the 90s and 00s, they'd much rather focus on the Pacific. Russia chose a different path as revanchist ex-empires gennerally tend to do... > This would result in a superpower even China would have to ally with Possibly but Russia really has nothing useful to contribute besid…

Russia has plenty to contribute to an economic relationship with Europe, but your prejudices just do not allow you to see that fact.

What prejudices? And please enlighten me. What could Russia bring besides oil, gas and various other raw resources? I'm genuinely curious.

Of course I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. Obviously Europe and Russia could have economic relations which would be beneficial to both sides if Russia dropped it's revanchist/imperialist policies and stopped pretending it's still a global superpower. However even then Russia joining the EU would end in a dissaster..

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#129

Post by [deleted] »

gumballindie wrote: post #16

Hm dubious article. Fails to mention that while west europeans are indeed getting poorer east europeans are getting richer. Confused folks might say that east europe is becoming richer thanks to eu funding and i will remind them that that comes at the heavy price of having sold entire industries to said benefactors - whom often underpay despite colossal profits, essentially making development more … challenging. None…

[deleted]

Re: Europeans Are Becoming Poorer

#130

Post by gfedtbyby »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #89
klabb3 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. The ones who ramble about Sweden, Switzerland, Finland when they’ve reached some goal like “happiest people in the world” or “safest cities”, usually with some picture of a cabin in the alps, are Americans who romanticize Europe.

> are Americans who romanticize Europe. Indeed. They don't know that many people here still have 1h+ commutes to their soul crushing 9-5 jobs just like they do, and assume everyone has a 15 minute bike ride to work through a cobble stone street or working remotely with their MacBooks in hip central cafes.

> 15 minute bike ride to work through a cobble stone street.

That's a pretty awful experience. I'd much rather ride for 30 minutes on asphalt.

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