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Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

reuters.com

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Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#121
post #85

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

Uhhh, two brief examples of fraud: Celsius said they had insurance to cover deposits - they did not. Celsius said customer funds are not used for high-risk loans -- they were.

Right -- this is pretty clear cut fraud.

I think the normalization of criminal activity in the crypto space is largely due to regulatory ignorance but when there are clear cut cases of fraud, the SEC should aggressively prosecute these crooks.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#122

Would someone explain to me what the endgame of these fraudsters is? I mean, of course they are trying to get rich quick pulling these schemes but you would believe that they do it because they perceive that there is some sort of opportunity to cash out without inevitably going to prison some day, right? What is the thought process in the mind of these criminals when shit hits the fan? Maybe just hire very expensive…

Notoriously weak prosecution of white collar crime makes more people willing to take risks. I’m not sure it’s any more complicated than that. If you’re going to commit small scale fraud, you might as well commit large scale fraud, because on face, it seems less risky.

> Notoriously weak prosecution of white collar crime makes more people willing to take risks

This is more a perceptions problem in Silicon Valley. Every fraud announcement is followed by hand wringing around the lack of prosecution. Every prosecution, convictions. Every conviction, sentencing.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#123
post #87

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

The important difference being that Pokemon cards don't meet the Howey test: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp So yes, if finance were unregulated, then he wouldn't have been violating the securities regulations that didn't exist. But they did exist, and the Howey Test is from 1946, so it shouldn't have been a surprise. A lot of people tried to pretend that the existing financial regulations, many o…

>The important difference being that Pokemon cards don't meet the Howey test: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp

... Pokemon cards were only used as an example to explain what happened, almost like an ELI5. Whether they'd pass they Howey Test or not is irrelevant.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. No, people buy and sell securities all the time. You simply need to follow the regulations for handling securities which includes certain types of tax and risk effort. If you keep selling securities while not following the KYC and tax stuff for those securities, you will in fact be breaking the law. Nor did the SEC magically throw down one day and start c…

The judge in the XRP case disagreed with you today.

> The court sided with the SEC when it came to “Ripple’s Institutional Sales of XRP to sophisticated individuals and entities,” saying they were securities transactions and constituted an investment of money. Ripple won when it came to “programmatic” sales, however, or sales made through trading algorithms, as well as other distributions.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/13/xrp-surges-after-judge-deliv...

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#125
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say that your analogy has zero actual bearing on what actually happened in this situation, and end the conversation there. He misrepresented Celsius. That's fraud. It doesn't matter if you do it with dollars, bitcoins, scrip, or Pokemon cards.

> Let's say that your analogy has zero actual bearing on what actually happened in this situation, and end the conversation there. Yes. Here's Celsius's web site archived in early 2022.[1] See what they claimed. They went all the way to being a fake bank. In their own words: "Meet Celsius: a community of over 1 million users that earn up to 17% yield on their crypto. Get paid new coins every week and borrow cash at 1…

Yes.

What are you answering 'yes' to here?

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#126

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

You may be aware already, but if you replace Pokemon with Magic the Gathering cards this actually becomes almost unbelievably close to a true story (minus the SEC story arc). The first "huge" bitcoin exchange[0] was originally a Magic card exchange which got extended to support cryptocurrencies. "Mt. Gox" = "Magic the Gathering online exchange". If it hadn't been hacked it would likely be in Coinbase's shoes right no…

As an old coworker of mine said when MtGox imploded due to fraud and/or just abysmal security, “What? Don’t you do all your banking at the comic book shop?”

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The settlement time on stocks is minutes. There is no requirement that brokerages are slow to settle. That is your brokerage choosing to be risk adverse.

The requirements are set by the SEC: https://www.sec.gov/about/reports-publications/investor-publ...

I'm going to repeat myself.

There is no requirement that brokerages are slow to settle.

There is a requirement - the one you linked - that a brokerage may not take MORE than three days.

It does not require them to take three days. A brokerage can settle as fast as it can.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#129
post #87

Let's say I run a swap meet for people to buy and sell Pokémon cards. There are lots of scammers out there, but I promise people they are going to get good prices. And I even offer to buy cards off of people at good prices to drum up interest. Tomorrow, the SEC decides that Pokémon cards are securities (far-fetched, but work with me here) Suddenly, anyone buying and selling them becomes a criminal. I tell people via…

The important difference being that Pokemon cards don't meet the Howey test: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp So yes, if finance were unregulated, then he wouldn't have been violating the securities regulations that didn't exist. But they did exist, and the Howey Test is from 1946, so it shouldn't have been a surprise. A lot of people tried to pretend that the existing financial regulations, many o…

> It's a good question for philosophers and spectators, but personally I don't care at all

Please don't be so narrow sighted. Have you ever been charged with a crime you didn't know was a crime? You don't think overzealous sheriffs or prosecutors love pulling out old statutes on people?

Holding people accountable for laws they had no reasonable way of knowing is a miscarriage of justice. Our criminal system absolutely takes intent into account when determining criminality and sentencing.

I have no idea why people think the Howey test is so cut and dry when courts sometimes struggle with a legal definition for a sandwich.

Re: Founder of crypto lender Celsius Network arrested, charged with fraud

#130
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important difference being that Pokemon cards don't meet the Howey test: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/howey-test.asp So yes, if finance were unregulated, then he wouldn't have been violating the securities regulations that didn't exist. But they did exist, and the Howey Test is from 1946, so it shouldn't have been a surprise. A lot of people tried to pretend that the existing financial regulations, many o…

You should care (not saying it's bad you don't!), because the philosophy of it helps us distinguish between a system in which people participate in good faith but get mislead and cling to bad behavior out of fear, vs people participating in bad faith thinking they can get away with it. The difference is in terms of punishment and enforcement mechanisms. The person who keeps doing something bad out of fear that there'…

There are some cases where I care about intent. Did somebody step on my toes? My reaction will depend on the extent to which I think they meant it.

But for large-scale financial crimes, I think worrying about that too much is not just unknowable and irrelevant, I think it's actively harmful.

As with toe-stepping, we can recognize that a whoopsie moment may not deserve punishment. E.g., if you're out hunting with your buds and accidentally shoot somebody in the face, as with Dick Cheney, that's different than intentionally shooting somebody.

But when somebody intentionally sets up or takes on a position of power, I think there are no whoopsies. Drinking a beer on the couch? Have fun. Drinking and getting in a car? Criminal. Drinking and getting in a car and killing somebody? It may be no more intentional than toe stepping. But at that point I don't really care whether they killed somebody because they meant to or not. The harm's the same.

I think this especially matters when we look at things like the 2008 financial crisis. It caused enormous damage, both in financial and human terms. Yet basically nobody was held accountable. Why? Because they didn't mean it. They were just greedy fuckers in positions of extraordinary power that they used for personal gain without regard to the human impact. Plus they were the sort of people who looked a lot like the people who made the laws. They went to the same parties and had nice friends. So they were all somehow let off the hook. And we did little to make sure they'd get held responsible the next time.

I think the personal growth bit is nice, but hopelessly naive. There are plenty of people who will do the right thing not out of love but of fear. There are worlds where those people are kept from doing harm, such that we can help them grow up to be decent. But we don't live in a world like that. And if we want to create that world, we need to stop the sociopaths and morally deficient goofs from causing massive trauma to those around them. Because I promise you, that will interfere with the victims' personal grwoth.

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