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France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

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Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#121

Post by mlkmt »

sixhobbits wrote: post #3

what tech does this even use? Do they mean using Pegasus or similar malware that the govt has to first get onto the suspect's devices, or is this via Google/Apple or the device manufacturers that makes 'remotely and secretly activating a microphone' even possible?

part of it is already being done: judges in France just ask companies like FAANG for location data, including live location. E2E encryption is the only way for companies to be able to refuse (and this is why there’s been a strong governmental push against it).

The scary new part is the turning on the camera/mic.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#124

Post by mytailorisrich »

> They noted that a judge must approve any use of the provision, while the total duration of the surveillance cannot exceed six months.

So essentially this is like getting a warrant to install a bugging device. Just that nowadays everyone carries said bugging device in the form of a smartphone and this law allows a judge to authorise turning it on (assuming it is technically possible).

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#125

Post by le_pet »

javajosh wrote: post #86
le_pet wrote: post #51

That sounds very reasonable, similar to installing a bugging device in the house of a suspect, to gather more evidence. The neat thing about mobile phones is that such a bugging capability comes built-in. The police should certainly be allowed to use this in the course of investigative duties.

Yes, it sounds reasonable. It also sounds reasonable to allow police to enter anyone's home at any time - consider all the crime they might prevent if only they didn't have to wait for a warrant! It sounds reasonable to let the police shoot a fleeing suspect, because why are they running if they aren't guilty? It sounds reasonable to let the police look through any computer - how much CP is missed because they have t…

Just as the police aren't allowed to install a bugging device in the house of a suspect without judicial permission, they're not permitted to remotely surveil a suspect's phone without such permission either.

So your comparison of this limited additional capability to "allow police to enter anyone's home at any time" is not relevant. And trying to draw a parallel to "let the police shoot a fleeing suspect" is absurd.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#127

Post by bagels »

dismalpedigree wrote: post #88
rtkwe wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's always the faraday bag or simply not taking it to your meeting/activity that have been the recommended options for opsec even when phones had removable batteries.

Faraday bags are not effective against all frequencies. Specifically the 5G frequencies are known to be very difficult to block with a cage ( but do have relatively short ranges)

It also is ineffective at blocking audio which can be shipped out as soon as it comes out of the bag.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#128

Post by kemayo »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41
andy_ppp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with the police has been universally terrible. They think they are above the law and trusting them to do the right thing or “tell the truth and you’ll be fine” is extremely bad advice. Get a lawyer and be very careful around these people is my more nuanced take on them. Edit: I commented before you made your answer more nuanced so I’ve changed mine too.

> You probably don’t have much experience with the police, would be my guess It's a bad guess. EDIT: Police in America have a "thin blue line" problem of reflexively defending peers' mistakes. Their cultures look disturbingly similar to gangs, though I don't think that's intentional--they're better described as fraternities with guns. (Which also describes gangs. Convergence.) That said, new recruits aren't corrupt.…

I do think it conveys something important about policing in the USA as a vibe, though I agree it's polarizing. In a similar sort of way to "defund the police" -- very catchy slogan which contains a bunch of nuance that's mostly not addressed by opponents.

As you say, I think a lot of cops do get into it for basically-good reasons, but the (hopefully-small) number who're in it for the power trip or who become dirty over time are fundamentally corruptive to the organization when combined with the "thin blue line" sentiment. If you can't trust any cop to help when you're victimized by another cop, "a few bad apples" will have spoiled the bunch.

Of course, I'll admit that much like "defund the police", it's kind of an umbrella term that gathers a few different views together, and you can't tell whether the person saying it holds the view I expressed above (which I think is the most mainstream position), or whether they think that policing is inherently corruptive and should be removed from society somehow.

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#129

Post by hammock »

_kbh_ wrote: post #77
hammock wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it expensive to compromise a phone? Is it sensitive to compromise a phone, now that there is a national law allowing it, passed through a democratic process?

> Is it expensive to compromise a phone? 2-2.5+ million USD depending for a full chain with persistence (lower end of range is for iOS higher end is for Android). That is probably the lower end of the rough cost to buy that capability which you can use as many times as you want. https://zerodium.com/images/zerodium_prices_mobiles.png > Is it sensitive to compromise a phone, now that there is a national law allowing i…

So, on the order of a dollar per person, assuming a town/municipality of a couple million people?

Is that a lot?

In the US the major cities have police budgets of between $200 million and $5 billion

Re: France passes bill to allow police remotely activate phone camera, microphone

#130

Post by ohgodplsno »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #41
andy_ppp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with the police has been universally terrible. They think they are above the law and trusting them to do the right thing or “tell the truth and you’ll be fine” is extremely bad advice. Get a lawyer and be very careful around these people is my more nuanced take on them. Edit: I commented before you made your answer more nuanced so I’ve changed mine too.

> You probably don’t have much experience with the police, would be my guess It's a bad guess. EDIT: Police in America have a "thin blue line" problem of reflexively defending peers' mistakes. Their cultures look disturbingly similar to gangs, though I don't think that's intentional--they're better described as fraternities with guns. (Which also describes gangs. Convergence.) That said, new recruits aren't corrupt.…

You've built up your very own strawman, and are arguing with it. ACAB is not "deeply connected" to defunding the police. And it's not also a solution to a problem: it's an opinion, a observation of facts. All cops are bastards, whether they're the young, new recruit that joins and inevitably ends up covering for the gang actions of others, the cops that have an itchy trigger finger the moment the person they're talking to is anywhere beyond #FFFFFF, or the captains that turn a blind eye to actions.

First off: this is not about America. Read the title, and stop being self centered for a moment. If you think France hasn't been saying ACAB for decades now, you're sorely mistaken. You know what my experiences are with the police, as a regular white dude ? Not what I see on TV, what I have lived. It's them not intervening when a neighbour in the middle of a psychotic episode stabs a passerby. It's them refusing to take in a deposition for sexual assault. It's them checking my arabic friends for drugs, but leaving me alone when I'm hanging out with them.

So, if you want more nuance: ACAB, and defund _this_ police. A few bad apples spoil the whole bunch, well the basket is rotting at this point.

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