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My ranking of every Shakespeare play

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Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#121

Post by Simon_O_Rourke »

ojbyrne wrote: post #3

That was fun to read, even though I would disagree with much of the article. I generally like the comedies least, the OP likes them most, but it's nice to see people talk about Shakespeare in an article linked here. A couple of comments I would make: * "People will think I’m crazy, but yes, I’m placing Henry IV above Henry V." I doubt many people would think you're crazy, the Henry IVs are generally considered better…

I guess the immortal Bard himself was on tenderhooks to find out this overly subjective ranking of his work.

The author left out one final work, the most excellent comedie "Two Gentlemen of Lewbowski".

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Gentlemen-Lebowski-Excellent-Tr...

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#122

Post by speed_spread »

codersfocus wrote: post #115
bombcar wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shakespeare has such influence that’s it’s almost more correct to say he wrote English than that he wrote in English.

150+ words are said to be coined by him

It's fair to say he got his cromulation game all figured out.

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#123

Post by bloak »

MrJohz wrote: post #118
codersfocus wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150+ words are said to be coined by him

In fairness, I think a lot of that is him writing in a vernacular English that wouldn't have been recorded much in official documents or other writings. So he probably didn't coin it so much as save it for posterity. Otherwise his plays would have been like those fantasy novels whether the author gets slightly too excited about using their made up words for everything.

I agree. There are plenty of words for which the earliest surviving example of it being used is in a work attributed to Shakespeare, but there is no reason to believe that Shakespeare was the first to use any of those words. People don't generally use a new word for the first time in a play or a poem, but published plays and poems is all we have by Shakespeare.

The first use of a new word tends to be in conversation (so the first use is not recorded) or in a non-fiction work, where the meaning of the new word can be explained. Or in fantasy novels, as MrJohz points out. (But what's the earliest example of the sort of fantasy novel that has invented words in it?)

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#124

Post by mellosouls »

paulsutter wrote: post #22

Not trying to start any debate here with Shakespeare fans, just intend this as a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare - Voltaire declared Hamlet a ‘vulgar and barbarous play’ and that ‘one would take this work to be the fruit of the inspiration of a drunken savage’ - George Bernard Shaw: ’. “There is no eminent writer, not even Sir Walter Scott, whom I despise so entirely as I despise Shak…

a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare

Speaking as another who loathed Shakespeare at school and worked against that beginning to understand him and eventually revere him, precisely because I (rightly) assumed I was wrong:

You have to frame the dissenters you quote in the context of overwhelming literary consensus that he's the greatest writer who ever lived.

It's not like there's a roughly equal opinion on both sides as to his being good or not.

If you don't enjoy Shakespeare it's absolutely ok, but be in no doubt: it's a you thing.

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#126

Post by coolandsmartrr »

paulsutter wrote: post #22

Not trying to start any debate here with Shakespeare fans, just intend this as a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare - Voltaire declared Hamlet a ‘vulgar and barbarous play’ and that ‘one would take this work to be the fruit of the inspiration of a drunken savage’ - George Bernard Shaw: ’. “There is no eminent writer, not even Sir Walter Scott, whom I despise so entirely as I despise Shak…

While filmmaker Akira Kurosawa often adapted from Shakespeare ("Throne of Blood", "The Bad Sleep Well", "Ran"), his frequent collaborator Shinobu Hashimoto was rather lukewarm about his works. Shakespeare's ornate prose didn't resonate with him, nor did he feel that Kurosawa fittingly adapted them into medieval Japan, which lacked the historical weight of English monarchy.

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#127

Post by btilly »

jovial_cavalier wrote: post #34
paulsutter wrote: post #22

Not trying to start any debate here with Shakespeare fans, just intend this as a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare - Voltaire declared Hamlet a ‘vulgar and barbarous play’ and that ‘one would take this work to be the fruit of the inspiration of a drunken savage’ - George Bernard Shaw: ’. “There is no eminent writer, not even Sir Walter Scott, whom I despise so entirely as I despise Shak…

>Tolstoy: ... "but having read one after the other, ..." Do not read Shakespeare. Shakespeare wrote plays, not books. Shakespeare should be watched, either on stage or on screen. Reading a Shakespeare play is like deciding to listen to the Beatles by downloading MIDI files and playing them through software. Maybe you get the broad strokes of the song, and maybe you even like it, but you're not listening to the Beatle…

My wife has English as a second language, but speaks it far better than most native speakers. But she can't handle other dialects very easily.

She likes Shakespeare when it is described, but as a play it is entirely impenetrable to her.

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#128

Post by bryanrasmussen »

rcxdude wrote: post #50
bazoom42 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in love. This is what makes it such a tragedy. Romeo and Juliet are not idiots, they are clearly the most sensible persons in the play. And it is anachronisic to call them teenagers, since the idea of “teenage” as a stage between childhood and adulthood is a 20th century innovation. In the universe of the play, they are adults and of marrying age. Apparently some teachers try to teach the play as a warning a…

it can be both: clearly the feud is idiotic, but also the framing does go a little out of its way to show how their love is largely young infatuation. it's tragic through the interaction of multiple reasonable and unreasonable elements in all the characters.

>but also the framing does go a little out of its way to show how their love is largely young infatuation.

I'm not sure that Shakespeare really had a concept of beyond young infatuation like we have today, probably the best examples (where the couple still feels like they have anything to do with each other more intimate than running a household) would be Claudius and Gertrude and Macbeth and his wife, neither of which couple had so much to recommend them over Romeo and Juliet.

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#129

Post by jdsnape »

Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #121
ojbyrne wrote: post #3

That was fun to read, even though I would disagree with much of the article. I generally like the comedies least, the OP likes them most, but it's nice to see people talk about Shakespeare in an article linked here. A couple of comments I would make: * "People will think I’m crazy, but yes, I’m placing Henry IV above Henry V." I doubt many people would think you're crazy, the Henry IVs are generally considered better…

I guess the immortal Bard himself was on tenderhooks to find out this overly subjective ranking of his work. The author left out one final work, the most excellent comedie "Two Gentlemen of Lewbowski". https://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Gentlemen-Lebowski-Excellent-Tr...

Sorry, this is unnecessarily pedantic, but as it's a discussion on literature I couldn't help mentioning that it's 'tenterhooks' not 'tenderhooks'

Re: My ranking of every Shakespeare play

#130

Post by telmo »

mellosouls wrote: post #124
paulsutter wrote: post #22

Not trying to start any debate here with Shakespeare fans, just intend this as a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare - Voltaire declared Hamlet a ‘vulgar and barbarous play’ and that ‘one would take this work to be the fruit of the inspiration of a drunken savage’ - George Bernard Shaw: ’. “There is no eminent writer, not even Sir Walter Scott, whom I despise so entirely as I despise Shak…

a supportive word for those of us who just don’t enjoy Shakespeare Speaking as another who loathed Shakespeare at school and worked against that beginning to understand him and eventually revere him, precisely because I (rightly) assumed I was wrong: You have to frame the dissenters you quote in the context of overwhelming literary consensus that he's the greatest writer who ever lived. It's not like there's a roughl…

There is no objective true to claims such as "X is the greatest writer who ever lived". Even if you could objectively determine the best writer for a certain culture and context, there are countless other cultures and contexts. Is Shakespeare greater than Cervantes? Goethe? Dostoevsky? Who knows? Who cares?

The world is not only the anglo world. Other cultures have their own literary giants and you can bet that they value them more than they value Shakespeare.

When I have to force myself to enjoy something, I tend to wonder if the thing is really worth enjoying or if I am instead just trying to acquire a taste that I deem prestigious. To each their own.

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