Live data from Hacker News

Goodbye, Twilio

blog.miguelgrinberg.com

121–130 of 353 posts

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#121

Anyone else share my thought that Twilio (and any other companies like them that I'm not aware of) is likely the primary driver of the massive epidemic of spam text messages and phone calls? Phone and text have been rendered almost completely useless to me. I often get close to double digit spam texts and calls per day. Obviously the drivers of this stuff are many and complicated, but it seems like the automation lay…

To send SMS with Twilio (or any other similar service) you need to jump through a bunch of hoops to register your traffic with major carriers and get their sign off.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question: What does Twilio do with the profit it does make off those bad actors once it discovers they are bad actors? Probably my top issue with companies like Google which make a ton of money off of crime is... they keep the money from the crime! That's a perverse incentive to at least do a poor job preventing it. I remember visiting the Twilio offices when it was still tiny during a Google Glass related thing. I s…

It’s a good question because it goes to the incentives of a company to truly fight the problem vs saying the right things but looking the other way when convenient. For us, we typically work with customers who are victims of fraud and the first time, we give them advice on how to better protect themselves and then refund them ~ the amount of profit we would have made. Ie we recoup costs but that’s it. For the financi…

That's a better answer than I expected, thanks! I agree it definitely makes sense to ensure your customers also have incentives aligned with yours.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#123
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

first of all, big admirer of you. if you feel inclined, would really love your comment on OP's observation: > Sadly, us developers are not at the center of everything anymore at Twilio. it does seem the recent messaging has de emphasized that in favor of "Customer Engagement Platform". as the originator of "Ask Your Developer" (I read your book!) that has to sting a little bit. would love to hear your thinking on how…

At this phase we have to talk both to the business and to developers. Only talking to developers isn’t savvy or smart. AWS etc do the same thing. We can have good APIs and make a compelling case to the business why they should pay for it. I agree that sometimes our engagement messaging isn’t quite right for developers. As a developer, I prefer more technical and matter of fact marketing of products. But interestingly…

This sounds reasonable and reads much better than glossing over OPs post. Hard to argue against.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#124
post #16
post #12

Yeah, it's sad. They started as simply an SMS gateway. I still have a Twilio account, for my steampunk Teletype setup. It's a pure reply system - you text to a phone number, that's printed on a Teletype machine, and the sender gets an acknowledgement back. It's inbound SMS. Years ago, at Twilio's request, I demoed this at a Twilio convention. Twilio now wants me to "register my marketing campaign" and pay an addition…

The campaign stuff is related to legal requirements. Ultimately the texting emailing and calling via APIs wild west is being shut down across the world by a hundred different government and regulatory organizations. Twilio surely has huge headaches in this area.

Pretty sure it's contractual obligations by the major carriers. Traffic registration is with the carriers, not with any regulatory body. So, it's out of Twilio's control but not "legal requirements".

Also its technically not required for actually inbound only, but it sounds like this application also sends ack replies.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#125
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

first of all, big admirer of you. if you feel inclined, would really love your comment on OP's observation: > Sadly, us developers are not at the center of everything anymore at Twilio. it does seem the recent messaging has de emphasized that in favor of "Customer Engagement Platform". as the originator of "Ask Your Developer" (I read your book!) that has to sting a little bit. would love to hear your thinking on how…

At this phase we have to talk both to the business and to developers. Only talking to developers isn’t savvy or smart. AWS etc do the same thing. We can have good APIs and make a compelling case to the business why they should pay for it. I agree that sometimes our engagement messaging isn’t quite right for developers. As a developer, I prefer more technical and matter of fact marketing of products. But interestingly…

definitely. my most quoted dev marketing tweet is about me constantly having to relearn “"Talk benefits, not features" doesn't work!” in the early stage devtool startup playpen i operate in, but at your stage you have multiple equally impt constituencies.

whenever i’m caught between a thesis and an antithesis i try to look for a synthesis to break through the apparent conflict. perhaps TWLO can find messaging that does the same. it feels like Msft is doing this well by essentially having a different group of brands that are keenly developer oriented, with Azure on the backend filling in all the enterprise messaging.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that fit in with Cloudflare? DNS is different than SMS, email, etc. Industry regulations, integration with providers, spam fighting, etc. Both benefit from network peering. I would think it would be easier to add DNS to Twilio than to add SMS to Cloudflare.

If you think Cloudflare only does DNS, you don’t know what Cloudflare is They do way more than just DNS

For any of the following Cloudflare products, are any as complex as SMS or Email? None of these are adversarial and covered by legal constraints to my knowledge (except ddos which is a resource game). I'm unfamiliar with their "china network" - probably some legalities there.

Cloudflare Services:

Advanced Certificate Manager Advanced DDoS Always Online™ Analytics Anycast Network API Apps Marketplace Audit Logs Argo Smart Routing Argo for Spectrum At Cost Registrar Bot Management Browser Insights & Origin Monitoring Browser Isolation (Advanced) Bring Your Own IPs (BYOIP) CDN Certificate Transparency Monitoring China Network Cloudflare Access Cloudflare Gateway™ Cloudflare Gateway™ (DNS Only) Cloudflare Images Cloudflare Logs Cloudflare Network Interconnect Cloudflare Pages® Cloudflare Registrar Cloudflare’s Security Operations Center (SOC) as a Service Cloudflare Spectrum Cloudflare Stream Cloudflare WAF Custom SSL Data Localization Suite Dedicated SSL DNS Firewall Enterprise DNS Only Enterprise - Primary DNS Error Pages Healthcheck Image Resizing Intel Keyless SSL Load Balancing Magic Firewall® Magic Transit® Magic WAN® Page Rules Page Shield Premium Success Rate Limiting Secondary DNS Secure Registrar SSL for SaaS SSL for SaaS Advanced Standard Success Offering Static IPs Teams for Enterprise Waiting Room Workers Bundled Workers KV Workers Unbound

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#127
FWIW I never thought Twilio was good as a developer. At least not coming hot off of Stripe. Which is glorious. The dev mode is fantabulous, and so are the docs. Twilio... I.. it's just atrocious in so many ways. Firstly, it needs a proper dev API key and then all the SMS's should just be collected into a dashboard on their site instead of going to phones. And their Connect option is very half baked. Customers should be able to re-use their existing Twilio numbers, not re-buy under a connected app, and they should be able to manage their numbers on twilio.com, not force me to rebuild the entire Twilio UI.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#128
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (...) and these other people who they hate so much in fact do critical jobs and (...) Just because someone is hired for a position of a sales rep/account manager/business people, that does not mean they walk over water. Those positions attract plenty of types whose primary skill is to leverage their soft skills talent to latch themselves to a organization while delivering no added value at all.

Very interested in knowing why do you think they don't add any value?

I’ve been on sales calls as the primary tech contact with 10 other people on the line. After 4 months on that account, only one other person actually did anything in my opinion. Perhaps the other bodies gave the perception that a lot of people “cared” about the customer?

Unfortunately, this is a common outcome. Sales/marketing will quantify revenue/profit goals, these goals often implicitly assume that it is only because of sales that those numbers were hit. Sales then grows headcount and gains influence in the organization. Eventually, you get some insane ratio of dev:sales and things get strange. The terminal state of such firms is the sales team driving acquisitions of products - so that they can sell the new product. By the time you’ve reached this point “technical” innovation is impossible.

On the flip side, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with driving a business from the sales side. There is lots of room for business process innovation. However, as an engineer - I’d much rather work at an engineering driven firm.

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright fine. Twilio has largely saturated the communications space. You can now send an API request for a phone call, SMS message, and WhatsApp notification in a lot of countries. If you were calling the shots, what would your next growth move be? What should Twilio expand into?

Not spam-calling elderly people and causing them to fall and die could be a good start.

Your comments in this thread seem to me to be heavily laden with the cognitive distortion of catastrophizing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion#Magnifica...

> Catastrophizing – Giving greater weight to the worst possible outcome, however unlikely, or experiencing a situation as unbearable or impossible when it is just uncomfortable.

---

Hopefully it goes without saying that talking about elderly people falling and dying due to a supposed spam text originating from Twilio is...a bit farfetched...

Re: Goodbye, Twilio

#130
I'll try to add some perspective to help people understand Twilio's side here.

Twilio is has always been a very unprofitable company. Unlike their SaaS counterparts Twilio's PaaS model has significant costs in the form of fees which they pay to network providers. They're also loved by bad actors who can leverage their service for fraud (search "toll fraud" if you're interested) and the ongoing effort and investment needed to counter this growing fraud problem is significant. What's more there's very little moat in a communications API so Twilio has little pricing power which only compounds the cost issues they face since they cannot easily increase prices to offset growing costs of an already unprofitable business model.

Basically the business model sucks. I'd argue it's one that can only exist in a world where investors are not interested in profits. Now interest rates are rising it's becoming harder for companies like Twilio to attract investors by posting revenue growth alone.

I don't think Twilio wanted to shift their focus, they simply had to. They had to find something that had more of a moat, and therefore better margins. Segment is the answer, but ultimately it's a different product which understandably requires a different focus. If you sell a communications API then developers are the people whom you must evangelise, but Segment is a product used by business folks to grow their business.

I don't envy the position Jeff and Twilio's management team are in. They've had to make some really tough decisions, but if you like Twilio then I'd see this simply as them doing what they need to do to survive and continue providing the awesome developer focused products they provide.

I'll also note that unlike Facebook's mass layoffs Twilio's layoffs weren't simply done to increase profitability, but needed to right side a business that's currently burning over $1 billion a year.

Post reply on HN