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240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

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Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#121

Post by gumby »

NBJack wrote: post #111
gumby wrote: post #105

This really makes me think about use cases. Personally I want my laptop to be as light and portable as possible; some of these bricks are likely heavier than my whole laptop! When I need crunch I do it on a desktop or in the cloud (or these days "... and in the cloud"). So I edit code locally but when I press c-X c, g++ runs on some other machine. I don't really understand why anyone would lug around an enormous and…

There is certainly a trend in processors as well as GPUs to push the hardware further by pumping more power into it. This (almost) always plays into the various workstation-grade laptops out there, which I suspect many won't unlock their full potential without a beefy power source. Beyond gaming, the most interesting use cases I have seen and heard are CAD work/displays of highly complex models, creating heavy duty m…

The CAD case was my default guess, though I've seen from my ME colleagues that when you're designing something very complex you absolutely need the oomph of a real workstation class machine. I guess there could be a large "middle" of quite complex but not extremely so.

But how many people need that? I was shocked to see another colleague doing CFD on his ipad.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#122

Post by eternityforest »

Sakos wrote: post #83
Reason077 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”USB C is very fragile” Is it? I’ve been using USB-C Macs since 2017 and I’ve never had any broken ports, despite some significant abuses (cable trips, grime in the port, etc). A few worn out cables, and failed chargers, maybe… but no problems on the laptop itself.

According to my technician friends, yes. Apparently on most devices, USB-C ports are much less robustly attached than USB-A and are more prone to failure. Just because it's fine on Macs doesn't mean it's fine everywhere else.

I haven't seen a failed port yet. I see loads of failed MicroUSB though.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#123

Post by rektide »

Kirby64 wrote: post #82
rektide wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great ask. There's no reason devices couldn't negotiate lower power. With USB-PD, power sources offer Power Delivery Objects: different charge modes they can do. It's up to devices to pick. Right now most devices pick the highest power option (that they can handle). For a variety of reasons, it would be super sweet if we could pick lower power options! Maybe it's a multi-device charger & you want to leave more capaci…

Notably, depending on the device, it may not actually pick the highest option it could handle. It may automatically adjust the voltage over time (state of charge, usually, dictates this) to compensate.

There's also an optional usb-pd PPS (programmable power supply) where the device can ask for a specific voltage with 20mV granularity & adjust the ask on the fly. This let's devices just pass through power directly to battery while still letting them finely control charge curves. Neat stuff.

But even just adjusting between, I to make up an example, 15V while charging battery, down to 9V after charged, is quite possible. I forget specifics but I almost think I remember there being a minimum amperage draw, so devices canr just ask for 20V then just sip 0.01 amps... They are required to step down to lower voltages if they need so little power. I'm not sure about this though!

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#124

Post by rektide »

crote wrote: post #115
rektide wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason some cheep chineese electronics with USB-C connectors can only charge with USB-A to USB-C cables, not with USB-C to USB-C cables is that they skipped the CC pins entirely. If anyone has a usb-c pass through adapter that can negotiate for 5v out, please please please share. Ideally for me it'd be a like 3 inch cable that that a male & female connector. Extra credit if it uses usb-pd to try to ask for 5v 5…

You can plug an A male to C male cable into an A female to C male cable, that gets you a (directional) C-C cable with guaranteed 5V output.

I'm so close to having zero usb-a in my everyday carry. But this is still a good suggestion & I often can do this already.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#125

Post by mdhen »

_trampeltier wrote: post #49

On one side, I like the idea (and I use it a lot) with USB C to power a notebook. I have a small 65W travel adapter and I can charge my beefy HP Z-Book (it even works with a 45W adapter) or my smaller Fujitsu U939. But both notebooks still have real charging ports too and normaly I use those. A real charging port are much less fragile when moving the notebook while plugged in. USB C is very fragile and it is an very,…

USB c port modules on the 13 inch framework are I believe $9. And made to be easily swapped in and out.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#126

Post by elcritch »

xxpor wrote: post #68
jaywalk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USB-PD requires extra circuitry that barrel jacks don't. I doubt we'll see the end of barrel jacks.

OTOH, a lot of things have stopped including transformers, so the tradeoff might be worth it for the manufacturers.

Exactly, the dc-dc bricks should more than offset the USB C costs.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#127

Post by kiwijamo »

crote wrote: post #109
notatoad wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the nice thing about USB-PD is that you can connect any PD-compliant charger to any PD-compliant device, and get some charge. so even without any software or clever switches to slow-charge your laptop, if you took a USB-PD laptop that prefers a 240W charger and plugged it into your 50W tablet charger or 20W phone charger, it would charge. it would just do it a lot more slowly than witht he high-power charger. I suspe…

This is not a given, though: it has guaranteed forward compatibility, not backward compatibility. Charging a laptop from a 20W phone charger usually doesn't work because the laptop will have a minimum voltage/current requirement, but charging a phone from a 240W laptop charger will always work.

That has been my experience as well. I've not come across a laptop that accepts a charge from a low power USB-C PD charger. I'm aware the standards allow for falling back to lower voltages but it seems laptop manufacturers specifically go out of their way to stop this. I presume to avoid issues with their battery charging system.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#128

Post by nunuvit »

Pomfers wrote: post #47
CoastalCoder wrote: post #7

Is it possible for a (laptop + USB-C PD power charger) to support multiple charging rates? My Lenovo Legion 5 has a 300W charger. Caveats: (a) I'm not sure if that's input power or output power; and (b) it's not a USB-C PD connector , but my question isn't specific to this laptop. Airplane A/C power outlets aren't willing to deliver that much power. And even if I was willing to slow-charge the laptop on an airplane o…

Yes, there exist many devices that support multiple charging rates. My phone allows the selection of 3 different wired charging speeds, as well as two different wireless charging speeds, selected in software. Unfortunately, due to cost or incompetent engineering, most devices only accept either a few charging configurations, often just one. I didn't realize this as my first laptop with USB-C ports could be charged wi…

It's too expensive for a feature that most people don't think to look for.

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#129

Post by nunuvit »

ianburrell wrote: post #86
kitsunesoba wrote: post #61

I wonder if we'll start seeing devices other than laptops that currently use barrel jacks for power shift to USB-C. 240W covers the vast majority of things even an enthusiast might have on their desk. It'd be nice if they did, if only because there's a single agreed upon way to deliver power with USB-PD, and USB-PD bricks hash out the details with the connected device to deliver appropriate power. It's a considerably…

I had idea of making adapters that have barrel jack on one side and USB-C port on the other. The 5V ones would be easier but would need ones for different voltages, which would either need USB-PD PPS or transformer in the adapter. They would currently be expensive and only for people who really hate wall warts. The other problem is that multi-port USB-C chargers are rare and expensive. My impression is that most devi…

You know what they say. There's no such thing as original thought.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/5450?gclid=CjwKCAjwm4ukBhAu...

Re: 240W USB-C PD chargers are nearly here, says Framework CEO

#130

Post by _trampeltier »

Reason077 wrote: post #58
_trampeltier wrote: post #49

On one side, I like the idea (and I use it a lot) with USB C to power a notebook. I have a small 65W travel adapter and I can charge my beefy HP Z-Book (it even works with a 45W adapter) or my smaller Fujitsu U939. But both notebooks still have real charging ports too and normaly I use those. A real charging port are much less fragile when moving the notebook while plugged in. USB C is very fragile and it is an very,…

> ”USB C is very fragile” Is it? I’ve been using USB-C Macs since 2017 and I’ve never had any broken ports, despite some significant abuses (cable trips, grime in the port, etc). A few worn out cables, and failed chargers, maybe… but no problems on the laptop itself.

On a clean table it might be not a problem, but if you work in an industrial environment or so, where the notebook maybe just is on a box or on the floor and next to heavy tools. Also if you move the notebook around while plugged in, I think with USB-C you really have to hold and support the cable.
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