Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way • Hacker News Board

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#121

Post by hirvi74 » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:14 PM UTC

asdfman123 wrote: post #93

hirvi74 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue is that the disorders/symptoms interfere with my ability to do "everything considered healthy." The ADHD makes it impossible for me to stick to exercise routines as well as other routines. The depressive symptoms make me feel like I am carrying a ball and chain and every little thing requires so much energy. The worst part is that I am treated for ADHD, and even that has basically any negligible difference a…

Does your ADHD make you feel antsy, like you need to get up and move around?

Absolutely.

It's part of the reason why office work is so difficult and working from home is not. Sitting in a office is quite tiring since I have to use a lot of energy to restrain myself. I'm the type of person who paces when thinking/talking on the phone, talks with their hands, bounces my leg when sitting, fiddling with something in my hands when talking, etc..

The best description I can give is it feels almost like a bad itch. I cannot control when something itches, but once the urge to scratch presents itself, it's almost impossible to resist. Trying to force myself to not move doesn't make the "itch" go away. It just gets worse.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#122

Post by eastof » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #88

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

Anxiety feels similarly. The most valuable thing I've gotten from the past several years of therapy is a better model for how humans actually process information. The simple model a lot of people have is: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. Process and understand it. 3. Respond to that emotionally. What we actually do is more like: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. This data is way too…

Love the level of introspection going into this post. I'm compelled to add my own two cents to your narrative since it's helped me.

I think step 4 is where people really get caught in a feedback loop. You come up with a reason why you should feel bad, and then you do (step 3) and before you know it you're back at step 4.

One approach is to try and cut it off at step 2 like you mention, but I've found this to be a never-ending rabbit hole because installing a better narrative requires constant work.

While of course it's not bad to work toward a better narrative of yourself, I've also had great success with meditation and humility targeting step 4. My friends with anxiety and depression all (somewhat paradoxically) are extremely confident when it comes to the rational side of their thoughts. They think they've got it figured out and it's just their emotions or other people that are the problem. I train myself in meditation (don't rationalize at all) and humility (recognize that my rationalizations are never going to be accurate).

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#123

Post by bendbro » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:25 PM UTC

flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#124

Post by EGreg » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:26 PM UTC

bendbro wrote: post #123

flippinburgers wrote: post #118

I have had what seems to me to be depression for most of my life (40+ years). I have been fortunate enough to have a kid and, now, I guess I just don't have time to be depressed or something because most of my thoughts of ending life etc have, quite thankfully, gone away. I'm really not trying to be off-putting when I say this but I do sometimes wonder if some instances of depression aren't simply a cause of people n…

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

I kept saying this for years on HN but until the 2022 study it was always voted down and told that NO, it is due to a chemical imbalance and that we don’t understand

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#125

Post by mtlmtlmtlmtl » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:27 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #98

fpgaminer wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning reminds me of a common misunderstanding of depression I've seen from people who've never been clinically depressed (1). It's an understandable mistake, albeit potentially dangerous (2). Depression isn't on the happiness-sadness scale. It's quite tangential to that. In fact, perhaps quizzically, you can be happy and depressed. It's fairly common for people who learn about the loss of a loved one…

The point I was trying to make isn’t about happiness or sadness per se, rather they depression has mental analogs that presumably are improved after treatment.

I think the more accurate way to conceptualise this is that treatment works by interfering with processes in the brain that cause depression, not that it cancels out the depression by adding enough euphoria/mania/happyness to compensate.

Antidepressants don't typically cause mania in healthy people, but they could paradoxically cause depression.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#126

Post by hifromLA » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:28 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

This is why the related concept of "catastrophizing" comes up so much in the context of therapy: > Catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion that prompts people to jump to the worst possible conclusion, usually with very limited information or objective reason to despair. When a situation is upsetting, but not necessarily catastrophic, they still feel like they are in the midst of a crisis. Anecdotally, many of the p…

Reddit is my Achilles heel for the very reason you outlined.

I quit Reddit and I remember the exact day it happened. I found myself typing and deleting a reply to a comment that was overly negative on something that I was well versed in. I knew this person was incorrect and taking a knee jerk cynical approach.

At some point I just said what the hell am I doing here I need to not be on this website anymore.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#127

Post by candiddevmike » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #88

asdfman123 wrote: post #5

> “It’s almost as if you’d already decided how you were going to feel, and then everything you were sensing was filtered through that,” he said. “The mood has become primary.” This is 1000% what depression feels like, once you've properly come to terms with it. Your brain seems absolutely compelled to apply the most horrific, negative interpretation to everything that happens to you. Even when you understand it's wro…

Anxiety feels similarly. The most valuable thing I've gotten from the past several years of therapy is a better model for how humans actually process information. The simple model a lot of people have is: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. Process and understand it. 3. Respond to that emotionally. What we actually do is more like: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. This data is way too…

This is part of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), you do ABC sheets like this:

https://iveronicawalsh.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/cbtafg_ab...

To retrain your brain on how to appropriately react to things.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#128

Post by notnaut » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

EGreg wrote: post #124

bendbro wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I wonder if depression is not always rooted in some random, mental problem but rather a reasonable reaction to reality.

I kept saying this for years on HN but until the 2022 study it was always voted down and told that NO, it is due to a chemical imbalance and that we don’t understand

There is the chemical imbalance and then there is the diagnosis. Complete guess, but wouldn’t be surprised if the rate of people with the imbalance has climbed less dramatically over the last several years than the rate of people being positively diagnosed.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#129

Post by iamacyborg » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:32 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #120

munificent wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anxiety feels similarly. The most valuable thing I've gotten from the past several years of therapy is a better model for how humans actually process information. The simple model a lot of people have is: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. Process and understand it. 3. Respond to that emotionally. What we actually do is more like: 1. Receive some stimulus, input, or experience. 2. This data is way too…

This applies to many things, including lots of things we think we “got to rationally” - much more than we want to admit is rationalization.

It thinks therefore I am.

Re: Researchers treat depression by reversing brain signals traveling the wrong way

#130

Post by eastof » Wed, May 17, 2023, 9:35 PM UTC

throitallaway wrote: post #75

walleeee wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two truths here which are often taken to preclude one another, but I think they can coexist 1. Depression can be treated and even overcome in some circumstances 2. There are very justifiable reasons many people might be depressed

What I find most troubling is how resources and power get concentrated in hands of the few, and the rest of us (99%+ of the population) are left to deal with the consequences. The few laws that do exist to prevent benefiting parties from raping and pillaging the earth and society at large are slaps on the wrist at best. The default is to toe the line and/or overstep legality and morality. That's what's so depressing…

I commented about this above since this type of thinking is what I see most commonly in my anxious/depressed friends.

Really think on it deeply for a bit and you'll realize this belief can't possibly be justified rationally. Who are you to say that resources and power shouldn't be concentrated in the 1%? You say they overstep morality? That's your morality and you can't defend it rationally (no one can). Plus you can't change these things anyway, so you have no moral responsibility to do so (my morality).

Media, politicians, advertisers, etc. all instill FUD to make you feel this way so the default option is pessimism. Try optimism. It may be wrong, but pessimism may be wrong as well and no one will ever find out so why even care who is right?