iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#121

Post by geocar » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:47 AM UTC

W4RH4WK55 wrote: post #102

kaba0 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

That I can just take the SIM out and put it in a different phone? what's the migration process for eSIMs?

Better: it’s a menu option.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780

eSIMs also have the advantage of an activation card can be sent instantly from almost anywhere (it’s a QR code) which is great if your phone (and physical sim) are lost or damaged.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#122

Post by W4RH4WK55 » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:47 AM UTC

spockz wrote: post #116

tshaddox wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need the carrier to offer eSIM, of course, but then you can just store a bunch of eSIMs on your iPhone and switch which one is active in the Settings app.

I think the GP question was how to migrate your eSIM to another phone. You can transfer the sim but it needs to be activated on the other phone. I have even seen reactivation charges of €5.

Yes, about how to move it to another phone, especially when my current phone just died. Maybe I dropped it and now the display no longer works.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#123

Post by newaccount74 » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:49 AM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #63

newaccount74 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The security on the iPhone is from the app sandbox, not from app review. It's trivial to get something past app review (eg. look at casino apps that were disguised as games) On the Mac, staying on the Mac App Store makes sense because it is the easiest way to enforce you only install sandboxed apps. On iOS, that's not going to be necessary, because every app on iOS is sandboxed.

> On the Mac, staying on the Mac App Store makes sense because it is the easiest way to enforce you only install sandboxed apps. As an aside, I do believe you can use sandboxd with apps outside of the App Store, someone just has to write security policies for them. This page suggests that Apple might want to deprecate use of sandboxd in favor of just the App Store[1], though. [1] https://codeberg.org/valpackett/rusty…

> I do believe you can use sandboxd with apps outside of the App Store

Yes, you can, it's trivial to do so. However, Apple does not make it easy to find out if an app is sandboxed or not, or what permissions it has.

The warning that macOS shows when opening an app not from the Mac App Store does not differentiate between sandboxed and non-sandboxed apps.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#124

Post by simondotau » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:49 AM UTC

canucker2016 wrote: post #106

superkuh wrote: post #14

Even if this is small progress the headlines and framing of the story are still doublespeak. Installing applications on your computer is the normal state of things. Walled gardens and not having control of your computer is the new weird thing. The word "sideloading" is a feudal concept and it's unquestioned use is dangerous for society. Properly stated this story title is, "Installing applications on iOS 17 might be…

From a personal-computer-user point of view, installing an app from any source is normal. For pre-iPhone cellphone users, your cellphone network operator controlled access to what apps were available for installation. This is was the most common, if not the only, method for cellphone app distribution. App makers (mostly java games) paid to get on that first page of downloadable apps. I'd add some references but Googl…

Personal computers really are the exception which proves the rule. Whether it’s the software in your TV, your pre-smart phone, your car, or your game console, locked down has always been the norm.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#125

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:50 AM UTC

foolfoolz wrote: post #81

onlypositive wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit. When was the last time you asked the builders association if you could remodel your kitchen? When was the last time you asked Honda if you could put new mags on your car? This whole idea that devices aren't owned when you purchase them is asinine and and insult to humanity. Your counter arguments…

the o. s. isn’t a hammer. it’s a service i’m sure you can find an o. s. that lets you do whatever you want. but will it be updated regularly with security fixes? will it support the latest connectivity technology like 5g? will it have built in support for the latest compression formats to take high res pics and videos? will it work anywhere in the world? if it does sure. go use it. i don’t think this exists and i’m h…

> but will it be updated regularly with security fixes? will it support the latest connectivity technology like 5g? will it have built in support for the latest compression formats to take high res pics and videos? will it work anywhere in the world?

Er. Yes? To all of those? Trivially? Heck, Android does those, with the FOSS ROMs typically doing better than the closed vendor solutions.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#126

Post by aikinai » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:50 AM UTC

onlypositive wrote: post #65

aikinai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing whatever you want on your computer is not necessarily the natural state; it’s not even how the industry started and it’s not how any other industry or devices work. I also prefer to be able to do whatever I want with my own devices, but pretending like it’s an inalienable right, or a natural state, or has no disadvantages is disingenuous and not helpful to the debate.

Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit. When was the last time you asked the builders association if you could remodel your kitchen? When was the last time you asked Honda if you could put new mags on your car? This whole idea that devices aren't owned when you purchase them is asinine and and insult to humanity. Your counter arguments…

> Of course it's the natural state and an inalienable right to modify or do with the things you own in the way you see fit.

I agree. But that's not the same as the right to install whatever you want. It's not illegal to jailbreak a phone if you can and want to, but it's also not illegal for Apple to lock it down if they can and want to. That is and should be the default state. And it's the same for everything else, your car, washing machine, game console, etc. If you want general computers to be explicitly defined to include smartphones and uniquely regulated to force more requirements on manufacturers and more rights to users, then that's great—I agree with that—but at least admit it's a new and unique regulation and not the default state.

It's weird you chose houses and cars as your examples since they're both highly regulated in the opposite direction you’re asking for computers. You're heavily restricted to what you can modify in either of those and, as far as I know, there are no regulations that specifically require manufactures to allow users to modify anything. You can swap out parts on your car if it complies with regulations, but there's no law that you have to be able to install software; it's locked down harder than smartphones. And just like smartphones today, you do own it and can do what you want (excluding other regulations), but there’s no right to installation; it's just a lockdown/jailbreak competition between you and the manufacturer.

I’ve jailbroken my phones for years and love to do all sorts of personal modifications to my computers and other devices. I think regulations to protect device freedom are a great idea; I just want people to be intellectually honest about the debate.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#127

Post by xlii » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:50 AM UTC

vivegi wrote: post #87

thesuitonym wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were being extremely charitable on the phrasing, I think they might mean, for example, if you pay Apple 30% (or whatever the going rate is) you might have to pay an external app store an additional number. Or, it might mean Apple will charge higher rates for apps that are also available on other app stores? Not sure if that's entirely legal, but since when have pesky things like the law stopped companies as big…

I agree. As a dev, if I list my $3/mo subscription app on the Apple App store and they take 30% and I have 100k customers and I double-list the app in the 3rd party store + the Apple app store and gain 20k customers from the 3rd party store and the 3rd party store charges 10%, I have saved (30% - 10%) x 20k x $3/mo = $12k/mo on the new customers. If I release my next version update and post it to just the 3rd party a…

I don't think that's a problem for Apple:

- For figurative developer moving 120k customers saves $72k/mo

- For figurative customers on $3/mo subscription it means ~$0.65/mo savings

- Such scenario doesn't take into account amount of work required for switch (5 minutes of form filling on $15/h is $2.5 - gain starts at 6th month)

- Neither it does UX around subscription management (right now it's very comfortable to manage Apple's subscriptions)

As a counter, anecdotal, point - I, myself, pay >$5/mo overhead on subscriptions and I'm completely aware that I can save money. My reasons:

- I'm too lazy to set up full account on provider's website

- Apple is VERY verbose about subscriptions, even if I forget about one, they e-mail me about it

- It easy to manage all my subscriptions and thus I only have subscription for things I use

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#128

Post by Xylakant » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:53 AM UTC

geocar wrote: post #121

W4RH4WK55 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That I can just take the SIM out and put it in a different phone? what's the migration process for eSIMs?

Better: it’s a menu option. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 eSIMs also have the advantage of an activation card can be sent instantly from almost anywhere (it’s a QR code) which is great if your phone (and physical sim) are lost or damaged.

> Some carriers support SIM transfers from your previous iPhone to your new iPhone without needing to contact them

“Some” is true afaik. It’s at the providers discretion.

AFAIK it’s also only possible if you’re moving from iPhone to iPhone, not if you’re moving to an Android. I’m not certain moving back and forth between multiple phones is easily supported.

I like e-sims in general, but this is a downside for some use cases.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#129

Post by JD557 » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:53 AM UTC

W4RH4WK55 wrote: post #102

kaba0 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s good about physical SIMs? I do like apple for daring to improve the status quo there, so I want my European Edition with only e-simsz

That I can just take the SIM out and put it in a different phone? what's the migration process for eSIMs?

Unfortunately, I don't think this is always true for physical SIMs.

I recently bought a temporary SIM in the US during my holidays (StraightTalk) and was surprised that you can only use the physical SIM after you register online with you IMEI. I haven't checked, but I imagine that after that the card would only work with that IMEI.

Fortunately, I don't think this is a practice in Europe.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#130

Post by walterbell » Sun, Apr 23, 2023, 5:54 AM UTC

Option 1: one-time cost for EU compliance, applied uniformly in other countries without geo-specific overhead, reducing ecosystem pressure for additional litigation and regulation.

Option 2: minimal EU-only compliance, generate A/B economic data for antitrust lawyers and regulators in other countries to compete on platform neutrality, which can be incorporated by EU in a spiral of regulatory FOMO.