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Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

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Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#121

Post by lockhouse »

wolverine876 wrote: post #67
indy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why label this 'rightward'? Plenty of left-leaning governments throughout history have used censorship.

> Plenty of left-leaning governments throughout history have used censorship. What does that have to do with Modi? Modi's government has moved far to the right.

Not the person you're replying to, but there is this persistent fallacy that left is inherently good and right is inherently evil, despite the fact that neither side of the political spectrum is inherently good or evil. Great injustices have been committed under both liberal and conservative governments throughout history.

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#122

Post by [deleted] »

demindiro wrote: post #41
autoexec wrote: post #4

I'm not even opposed to flagging posts as “fake, false or misleading” because abusing those flags will cause them to be ignored, but removing content is a problem. State censorship is a much bigger threat to Democracy than false or misleading tweets and facebook posts.

I find it fascinating that people defend censoring "misinformation" because people (supposedly) cannot discern it from "real" information. If we cannot trust the judgement of the common folk, why have a democracy at all?

[deleted]

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#123

Post by commoner »

AverageDude wrote: post #84
shasts wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got sources for this claim? If he has done anything wrong, why is he not in jail for that?

It’s the usual protocol of astroturfing. Accuse the whistleblower of something vague and discard them with name calling. Straight out of playbook of authoritarian governments. Nothing new. I searched the name Nupur Sharma and it gave me this article which explains everything. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61716241.amp It says that the fact checker shared a video of what she said.

That's correct. Nupur Sharma's comments on the Times Now news channel were incendiary enough that Times Now decided to delete the video of the debate she was featured in and also issue a statement:

> Views expressed by BJP Spokesperson on Newshour@9 last night are her personal views. TIMES NOW does not endorse views of participants. We urge participants on our debates to maintain restraint and not indulge in unparliamentary language against fellow panelists.

It's not someone else's fault that Sharma decided to make those comments on live television in the first place.

https://www.jantakareporter.com/entertainment/times-now-dele...

https://twitter.com/timesnow/status/1530137204999475201

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#124

Post by screye »

corbulo wrote: post #27

Ill admit I don't know a ton about India's constitution. Do they have freedom of speech? How is it phrased?

I highly recommend you go read a summary of the Indian constitution before reading comments on here. I will offer my own opinions on the matter, but you'll likely find that my answers are in stark contrast to some others on this thread.

The Indian constitution (and its amendments) is one of the most liberal and social-justice oriented constitutions of any nation in the world. It was primarily drafted by independent India's most famed social justice proponent: Dr. Ambedkar and the blessings of Gandhi and Nehru, who'd fit right into the sociology departments of academic universities in the US in 2023.

In broad strokes it attempts to empower states with federalism on social issues and governance, but central economic and national policy. It tries to allow social insularity of communities, linguistic or religious. So, religious minorities get to have their own personal civil law (marriage, inheritance) and independent institutions (religious schools, churches, mosques, hospitals, etc) and land ownership. On the other hand, it is paternalistic towards the Indic religions (Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, and partially sikhs) taking full ownership (for better or for worse) of issues pertaining to those religions. Similarly, its individual states get a lot of power over how bills are implemented on that ground, meaning that a strong central govt (like Modi's) is still quite weak and can be completely blocked by a uncooperative state govt. (TN, Kerala, WB, Delhi, etc).

India was formed as an insecure nation, desperate to show how secular it was, as a counter weight to Pakistan's religious fundamentalism.

Here are a few accommodations in the constitution that stand out:

* Article 334 [1] of the Indian constitution explicitly grants affirmative action in all govt. institutions to those that belong to lower castes.

* The judiciary is FULLY independent. This means, that unlike the US, the Indian Govt. cannot pick judges, with the judiciary internally handling issues of selecting judges all the way up to the Supreme court. [2]

* The standard fundamental rights. They almost entirely focus on protection of minorities. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety-fifth_Amendment_of_the_...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_India#The_Constit...

[3] https://www.clearias.com/fundamental-rights/

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#125

Post by screye »

commoner wrote: post #116
screye wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Altnews the left wing version of Tucker Carlson. I'd go as far as to say that if Alt-news told me there was no Earthquake in my house, my first instinct would be to find cover. Local and politicized news in India is notoriously biased. But the direction of the bias varies from news org to news org. Somehow, American & British news orgs are notorious for giving megaphones to the worst faith actors within Indian politi…

Alt News is much more similar to Rappler, a Filipino news website and fact checker whose founder (Maria Ressa) was awarded the 2021 Nobel Peace Prize after she was arrested and convicted by the Filipino ruling government for "cyberlibel" in retaliation for her journalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rappler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa The Peace Research Institute Oslo nominated the Alt News founders (…

[flagged]

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#126

Post by Waterluvian »

preommr wrote: post #83
Waterluvian wrote: post #47

Yesterday I learned that Canada is the fourth oldest ongoing democracy, measured as beginning in 1867. I think given our short lifespans, anything that our parents, grandparents, and great grandparents enjoyed is really easy to perceive as a steady state. Something to take for granted as being invariant. But it’s really not. While it’s possible to debate the specifics and semantics, this really brought into focus, fo…

It's even younger than that; women couldn't nationally until 1920 in the US. And in practice, many black people couldn't vote until the voting acts right of 1965.

That’s true. Just… 1965. That’s barely “history.”

This is all so incredibly young and brittle.

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#127

Post by philipkglass »

jutrewag wrote: post #115
drdeca wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning instructions on how to make bombs would be censorship. Banning the making of bombs is not censorship.

The former is banned.

This is where it's more helpful to talk about specific nations' laws. Books about making bombs are not banned in the USA, for example.

Here are the books "Improvised Munitions Black Book" and "U.S. Army Unconventional Warfare Devices: Boobytraps" from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Improvised-Munitions-Black-Book-Unabr...

Originally created for soldiers in guerrilla warfare situations, this handbook demonstrates the techniques for constructing weapons that are highly effective in the most harrowing of circumstances. Straightforward and incredibly user-friendly, it provides insightful information and step-by-step instructions on how to assemble weapons and explosives from common and readily available materials. Over 600 illustrations complement elaborate explanations of how to improvise any number of munitions from easily accessible resources.

https://www.amazon.com/U-S-Unconventional-Warfare-Devices-Bo...

Some of the materials discussed in this special forces guide to boobytraps include:

- Disguise boobytraps in common items.

- Disguise boobytraps in structures such as window frames and stairways.

- Disguise boobytraps in outdoor areas, in bushes and underground.

- Learn the mechanics of the various types of firing devices, detonators, fuses, cords, adapters, blasting caps, and lighters.

Actually following instructions in these books may lead to felony charges in all 50 states. But writing or reading about them is perfectly legal. The same goes for reading and writing about making scheduled drugs, poisons, and other controlled items.

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#128

Post by throwaway_9120 »

commoner wrote: post #123
AverageDude wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the usual protocol of astroturfing. Accuse the whistleblower of something vague and discard them with name calling. Straight out of playbook of authoritarian governments. Nothing new. I searched the name Nupur Sharma and it gave me this article which explains everything. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-61716241.amp It says that the fact checker shared a video of what she said.

That's correct. Nupur Sharma's comments on the Times Now news channel were incendiary enough that Times Now decided to delete the video of the debate she was featured in and also issue a statement: > Views expressed by BJP Spokesperson on Newshour@9 last night are her personal views. TIMES NOW does not endorse views of participants. We urge participants on our debates to maintain restraint and not indulge in unparlia…

If you watch the full debate, the Muslim panelists were continuously mocking Hindu Gods, Nupur got fed up and replied to them in the similar manner.

What this fact checker cunningly did was to edit out the Muslim panellist mocking and simply showed her part of the clip. He has a mass following in Islamic nations and it got blown out of proportion.

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#129

Post by commoner »

screye wrote: post #125
commoner wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alt News is much more similar to Rappler, a Filipino news website and fact checker whose founder (Maria Ressa) was awarded the 2021 Nobel Peace Prize after she was arrested and convicted by the Filipino ruling government for "cyberlibel" in retaliation for her journalism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rappler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ressa The Peace Research Institute Oslo nominated the Alt News founders (…

[flagged]

"Hurting religious sentiments" by tweeting a screenshot of a 1983 movie is obviously not a war crime. Zubair is a journalist who was jailed for spurious reasons:

> Retired Supreme Court judge Justice Deepak Gupta on Tuesday said that questions arise on the Delhi Police for arresting journalist Mohammad Zubair for allegedly hurting religious sentiments even as suspended Bharatiya Janata Party Nupur Sharma is still free despite making controversial comments on Prophet Muhammad, Live Law reported.

> The first information report against Zubair was based on a complaint by Delhi Police Sub-Inspector Arun Kumar, who said he was monitoring social media when he came across the March 2018 tweet after a handle named Hanuman Bhakt raised objections.

> The handle had taken objection to Zubair’s tweet, showing a hotel signboard with the name “Honeymoon Hotel” repainted to “Hanuman Hotel”. The journalist’s lawyer has argued in court that the photo is a screenshot taken from a 1983 Hindi movie.

> On Tuesday, Gupta said that nobody had complained about the movie for 40 years. “How was it [the tweet] reported based on one anonymous complaint?” he asked.

https://scroll.in/latest/1027652/questions-arise-when-police...

As a journalist, Mohammad Zubair is like Maria Ressa. Both speak truth to power in countries in which press freedom is an ongoing issue, and both are not afraid to publish inconvenient facts that reflect poorly on the ruling party of their countries. There are plenty of Indian sources that reported on Zubair being jailed for "hurting religious sentiments", so I'm not sure how your dislike of Western media is relevant. Your comparisons of Zubair are also not very appropriate, since "hurting religious sentiments" is not the same thing as publishing false information.

Re: Indian government empowers itself to “fact check,” delete social media posts

#130

Post by autoexec »

Paul-Craft wrote: post #107
autoexec wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what the real answer should be. the real answer is full transparency. Someone posting a lie is only a problem when no one is allowed to challenge it, and when you allow censorship you are giving someone the authority to prevent challenges to both truth and lies at the same time. The Constitution has problems and I've love to see some changes to it, but freedom of speech is not something we should aband…

> the real answer is full transparency. Someone posting a lie is only a problem when no one is allowed to challenge it, and when you allow censorship you are giving someone the authority to prevent challenges to both truth and lies at the same time. We just had the lesson on what the problem with "full transparency" is 3 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35567904

It's always easier to simply state something is true than it is to prove it, or disprove it. That's a lot less of a problem when people aren't receptive to believing everything they see without question in the first place. Brandolini's law doesn't mean that it is impossible or undesirable to correct misinformation. It just says that spewing lies takes less effort. It demonstrates why it's important to give people critical thinking skills in the first place, so that you don't have to spend as much effort chasing and cleaning up after bullshit because that would mean fewer people are accepting it and forwarding it along.

The alternative being proposed here is to accept censorship which allows lies to go unchallenged entirely and makes it impossible to ever correct them.

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