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There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

toolguyd.com

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Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#121
post #26

First time seeing this blog and it seems like they're trying too hard to give the benefit of doubt here. The list of concerns / drawbacks, particularly the reliability of performance concern, may be valid, but consumers deal with these already with every other battery powered device. A cheap USB charger or cable can dramatically effect your charging speed, a cheap AA battery may reduce your runtime, etc. It feels lik…

This isn't a secret in construction, you buy one brand of cordless tools and stick with it. DeWalt sells tools so cheap you wonder if they're a loss leader. A single battery (one of the big 60V, 12Ah ones you use for circular saws and angle grinders) is $285 on Amazon. The biggest cordless circular is $178, the biggest grinder is $163. You'll want at least two of those batteries per day if you're doing any serious wo…

Dewault has a 'sneaky' tactic. I just needed a battery. Tools run fine. You can't buy a new battery, of the legacy style, from the big box stores though. They do sell a battery adapter so you can use with their new style batteries with your existing tools. Now that you have a new battery to use with your old tools, might as well keep buying new tools to match that battery.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for doubl…

But you generally can use a low power battery with a high power tool within the same brand. My 2Ah battery fits in my Dewalt 20V chainsaw. I'm guessing it has drastically less power and drastically reduced runtime (fewer cells -> more series resistance). And this would reflect entirely on the brand, except that people generally know enough to understand that using a much smaller battery than what came with the tool m…

I'm guessing it has drastically less power and drastically reduced runtime

Yes, pretty much. A lot of people don't realize this and have no reason to assume otherwise.

Let's say you can lift up to 50 pounds, and your friend can lift up to 100 pounds. You are both tasked with moving a pile of 5 pound weights from one spot to another.

You can move (50) 5 lb weights before getting tired, your friend has the energy to move (100). So, you have the energy to move 250 lbs, and your friend 500 lbs.

However, increase the load to 40 pounds. 45 pounds. 49 pounds. If your friend can move 10 49 pound weights before tiring, are you going to be able to move 5? The work being done is 50% of their max effort, but 99% of your max effort. You might give up after 2 despite technically starting with the energy to move 5.

But ultimately they want that control to further their own self interest.

Of course. But given many of the questions I've fielded over the years, consumer education and expectations will be a considerable challenge.

A common battery interface wouldn't be enough - if even possible at this point; there would also have be industry standards in how tools and batteries are characterized.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#123
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for doubl…

I appreciate the response. I might just not be the target of your blog, in your given example: >You're at the home center and see three power tool batteries on the shelf - all are 18V and rated at 3Ah, but they're different physical sizes. Which is better? >With a bit of research on your phone, Personally, myself nor anyone I know who uses power tools more than just buying a 12v drill once, would do this research on…

>Personally, myself nor anyone I know who uses power tools more than just buying a 12v drill once, would do this research on our phone in the aisle of Home Depot. If I see three batteries all rated the same, it would be a price decision or a form factor one ("bigger must be better"). That could be where my disconnect is - I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.

Even if conducting your research at home and online before buying into a cordless platform, you might encounter similar options and potential confusion.

Here are two Dewalt 20V Max batteries:

https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb230/20v-max-compact-3ah-ba... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb200/20v-max-3ah-battery

Here are two Dewalt 6Ah batteries:

https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb206/20v-max-xrr-6ah-batter... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb606/flexvoltr-2060v-max-ba...

Here are two Dewalt 5Ah batteries:

https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcbp520/20v-max-dewalt-powers... https://www.dewalt.com/product/dcb205/20v-max-xrr-5ah-batter...

More knowledgeable users have difficulty sorting out the differences. I used Dewalt as an example, but every brand has their own nuances to understand.

Bigger is still usually better, but not always, as the scale is no longer linear.

Most consumers expect a linear relationship.

>But I, and everyone I know, would hate it if no one made those cheaper usb-c docks and just limited our choices to the $250 options.

There are 3rd party batteries and adapters available on Amazon, ebay, and direct-import sellers.

I would never touch them, but they're there for those who want to buy them.

> I've never once thought about what kind of internal battery cells are being used.

I wouldn't expect most people to.

The main source of confusion is that each cordless power tool brand has battery options across several different technological generations.

Different brands' like-capacity batteries can have different power capabilities as well.

The end result might be that consumers will be presented with multiple batteries all labeled the same, such as 18V 4Ah, with all different capabilities.

People would spend less, but get less and not understand why.

Simply being able to swap batteries around wouldn't be a sufficient fix by itself.

It's like using a micro USB cable with a USB-C plug adapter, and expecting it to charge a laptop at 100W.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for doubl…

I'm not sure if it's intentional, but your example about a 6 Ah battery being worse than a 5 Ah battery seems to apply to Ryobi's 40 volt line, due to using cells from inferior brands[1]*. In this case however the inferior 6 amp hour (10s3p) battery is physically larger than the 5 amp hour (10s2p) and conveniently does not fit into some of the higher drain tools in this line, such as their chainsaw. A potential solut…

I hadn't heard about that until now, but also am not surprised to see sourcing vary. A lot of time this seems to have as much to do with volume as it does with cost.

A brand has wire strippers on the shelf at Home Depot year-round, and they're made in Taiwan. When they ship promo displays with high volume count of pliers for the winter holidays, the wire strippers are made in China. I bought both, and found the ones made in China to be slightly better quality. Cost could be a consideration, but there's logistics involved with shipping a couple of dozen tools per store x 2000 stores plus online distribution.

I wouldn't be surprised if batteries could be sourced depending on production volume or manufacturing location of the tools they're bundled with in kits.

Cell availability is also an issue. Festool is discontinuing their 5.2Ah battery and replacing with a 5.0Ah battery. I cannot find either in stock anywhere right now. The slight change will give Festool the flexibility to source 2.5Ah or 2.6Ah batteries. It's better to build a 5.2Ah battery that's labeled as 5.0Ah, rather than sell a 5.2Ah battery that only has 5.0Ah capacity.

A couple of brands have had issues with 5S3P batteries not fitting tools that weren't designed for them. Milwaukee, for example, replaced the battery bays of some of their lights when their first 15-batteries came out. I don't think Ryobi ever offered similar.

If Ryobi had new tools that wouldn't fit their larger 6Ah battery, that would be bad.

In my example, I was referencing 6Ah batteries with 3Ah 18650 cells that have higher internal resistance compared to 2Ah and 2.5Ah cells.

Datasheets are tricky.

If I recall correctly, when Milwaukee launched their 5S3P M18 9Ah HD battery, the best 3Ah 18650 cells were rated to top out at 15A continuous discharge current. The best 2Ah cells were rated at 22A. So why would a 5S3P battery with 3Ah cells be any better than a 5S2P battery with 2Ah cells?

I asked the product team exactly this and they mentioned that data sheets are a good starting point, but don't directly dictate real-world performance. What it comes down to is cooling. That, and batteries are regulated so that tool power and performance is comparable across different battery sizes or types of batteries.

Batteries would need to be characterized in terms of max power delivery at a rated temperature. This is very hard to do at high loads, given the cost of test equipment and safety precautions.

Tools would need to be rated as well, something that isn't done at all right now.

I attempted to do that once, but found that maximum power draw depended on the application and work material, type and sharpness of the accessory used, and depending on the tool the type of battery it was paired with.

Look online to see how much dislike there is for the UWO (unit Watts out) unit that Dewalt uses to describe their cordless drills and select other tools. In theory, this is a better measurement for comparing how one drill might perform compared to another, taking into account both speed and torque. In reality, everyone simply wants to know the max torque specs.

I'm not saying it's good to have to buy different brands' proprietary batteries to power their tools, but that - even if possible - a universal battery system will be consumer-unfriendly in other ways.

I really hope I'm wrong.

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I wanted to give brands the benefit of the doubt, but that I believe there are other hurdles and significant obstacles independent of corporate profit considerations. Many consumers are familiar with the concept of Ah (amp-hours) as akin to a car's gas tank, where the more amp-hours a battery has, the longer it can power a device. If you buy a video camera, the brand's 4Ah battery should allow for doubl…

> With many more options available, I'm sure many users will pair cheaper brand name batteries with pro-level tools and expect everything to work well together. Who will they blame for poor performance? Themselves and their choices? The tool brand? Or the battery brand? I have a DeWalt drill that I bought some years ago. I literally have no idea if the drill performs well or not no matter what batteries would go best…

Are you drilling 1/8" holes or driving in small screws a couple of times a year? The batteries that came with your tool should last many years.

Every type of user wants less expensive batteries and more opportunities to save money.

What about consumers who use cordless blowers? An increasing number of towns and cities have ordinances banning gas engine blowers.

Cordless chainsaws are increasingly popular with homeowners, and their power requirements can be very different from those of a cordless drill.

Every brand now has cordless trimmers, mowers, and more.

A universal interface would all but require most users to start having to geek out over battery selection unless they stuck with their tool brand's options.

Even if all the technical hurdles are knocked out of the way, what's to stop brands from designing their tools to only deliver their full potential when powered by their own batteries? At least one brand already does this.

So you might not care about geeking out, but what happens when you buy the wrong battery and your cordless mower can't cut tall grass when it can with the batteries it was sold with?

Re: There’s no universal cordless power tool battery – why?

#126

Seems like there would be a market for a universal adapter that accepts all the different batteries and plugs into all the tools - or at least several of the major brands. Kind of like an octopus cable but with some additional straps to let you bundle the whole thing with whatever tool compactly. Probably the adapters would infringe on everyone's patents or copyright or whatever or someone would have done it.

The challenge with adapters is that different batteries communicate different things to a tool, such as internal temperature, in different ways.

You cannot just connect + to + and - to -.

What could work is a battery with a new standardized interface, and modular adapters that can match different brands' tool interfaces.

Over the years, maybe some brands might develop tools that mate directly to the universal battery.

But now there are 18V/20V Max, 24V Max, 36V/40V Max, and 54V/60V Max cordless systems. There's no practical solution for this.

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