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If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

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Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#121

Post by thebooktocome »

snapetom wrote: post #96
Xelynega wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

The lawsuit was filed three months after NEL was launched. Controlled Digital Lending has been around for years and is used by public libraries. Publishers didn’t like it CDL, but they lived with it. There absolutely is a correlation between NEL and the lawsuit. It’s a small part of the lawsuit, but it’s clear it pushed them to go to war against IA.

> Publishers didn’t like it CDL, but they lived with it.

Publishers spent millions of dollars developing digital lending platforms with fewer features and worse ROI than CDL, and then bullied libraries into adopting them.

This is a reasonable summary of their pre-IA activities:

https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?arti...

> There absolutely is a correlation between NEL and the lawsuit.

As many comments point out in this thread, legally the trial and the judicial decision had little to do with the NEL. Therefore, in the counterfactual where the NEL had not been part of the dispute, the publishers would have still won their case.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#122

Post by dumbotron »

jsnell wrote: post #7

The title implies that losing this lawsuit is threatening the existence of the Internet Archive. Is that really the case? If it is true, then maybe IA should be run by somebody with better judgement. This was a project with a massive chance of failure (how could anyone think that this wasn't just blatantly infringing?) and a low payoff. If it's also an existential risk, then wtf are they doing running it?

I don't donate to them because they're mismanaged like this.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#123

Post by vorpalhex »

bee_rider wrote: post #92
zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, why would I give them money when they do blatantly illegal stuff?

It seems like a reasonably thing, to stop giving the Internet Archive money if you think they might be a bad steward of it. The comparison to rockstars is kind of interesting though, they often engaged in behavior that was criminal, and sometime pretty odious. We gave them money because we liked their cultural output, and they wouldn’t give it away for free. The Internet Archive doesn’t demand money, produces stuff w…

> In the end I have a streaming subscription and don’t give money to charities (maybe when I get a good job I will).

Most people won't. When you get the better job, you still won't. If you were buying your first yacht, you still won't.

Pick a percent, maybe 1%, of your income. Donate it. If it's literally $1, you are at least giving a dollar. Do it today. If you don't want to pick charities directly, there are charitable funds you can give to instead.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#124

Post by acomjean »

reaperducer wrote: post #48
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're doing us all a favor is what they're doing. Intellectual property is just not that important when compared with ensuring that the powerful can't rewrite history. If they lose their case, I hope the project can be kept afloat in ways that the US government can't interfere with.

I hope the project can be kept afloat in ways that the US government can't interfere with. The U.S. government, oddly, is the least of my fears when it comes to rewriting history. Private enterprise is already doing it, even going to far as to reach into your private library of books and music to change them after you're purchased it: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/04/arts/dahl-christie-stine-... Until yesterday, I…

Dahl (or his publisher) changed his own book , the initial back story of the oompa-loompas being problematic. This was 10 years after publishing when someone pointed out it wasn't a great depiction.

https://www.roalddahlfans.com/dahls-work/books/charlie-and-t...

But it is weird that they can go into your device and change it now. Don't love it. If they made Version 2 available at the same time....

I have Body Count's first Music CD. I got the day it was released. It has a song that was considered problematic and thus removed in future editions.. But they can't change it on the one I have. The big stink they made about it probably sold a bunch copies. On release day they had one copy on CD and one on tape and I had to ask the person working at the store if they had it. (as opposed to dozen of Bruce Springstein albums released that day).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Count_(album)

They're were a other examples of CDs cover art being modified because naked people.. https://janesaddiction.org/discography/janes-addiction/album...

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#125

Post by justin66 »

tristor wrote: post #56

Frankly, what the IA did here is absolutely the right thing. Copyright in the US is horribly fundamentally broken, and the idea that factual information about our history and world should not be referenceable and accessible for free is a pretty heinous one. Information wants to be free, and the work that IA did for "digital lending" during the pandemic was an essential move in the direction of ensuring that people ca…

> I don't understand the backlash in the comments here, it seems to all come from a perspective of people being so downtrodden they just accept the current status quo crafted by MAFIAA lawyers, rather than looking at it holistically from first-principles.

People do not understand that the IA want to go to court as part of their strategy, or else they think they understand what constitutes an effective legal strategy for the IA better than the IA do.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#126

Post by ghaff »

simiones wrote: post #110
tablespoon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You can wonder all you like, and call me a cynic, but the US runs on money not culture. The American identity is built on money and wealth and excess, not on anything you might describe as "culture". > The USA's biggest export is our culture...like it or not. Think of movies, music, etc. Some of it is intangible. Yeah, but that's not high culture. It's mass-market culture that makes a lot of money. I think what th…

I don't think so at all: the IA has little to do with what is normally termed "high culture", and much more to do with "low culture" (lots and lots of internet trivia that would mostly be of interest to archeologists).

I doubt the average person on the street has even heard of the Internet Archive much less thinks it's some essential cultural institution.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#127

Post by Mindwipe »

nequo wrote: post #42
hirako2000 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's at least at risk of being blocked by ISPs in the us and pressured/shutdown if hosting is by a provider in the US.

Even after complying with the court's decision and shutting down unlimited digital lending?

That's not really going to be the issue anyway.

The issue is if the liabilities of having done this result in the organisation going bankrupt. Note that the plaintiffs have already stated that is not their aim.

Even then, the likelihood is more that someone else would take it over (though I imagine that the plaintiffs would, if they waived some proportion of their damages, that nobody currently involved in the current leadership and board was allowed anywhere near it).

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#128

Post by dumbotron »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #16
jsnell wrote: post #7

The title implies that losing this lawsuit is threatening the existence of the Internet Archive. Is that really the case? If it is true, then maybe IA should be run by somebody with better judgement. This was a project with a massive chance of failure (how could anyone think that this wasn't just blatantly infringing?) and a low payoff. If it's also an existential risk, then wtf are they doing running it?

They're doing us all a favor is what they're doing. Intellectual property is just not that important when compared with ensuring that the powerful can't rewrite history. If they lose their case, I hope the project can be kept afloat in ways that the US government can't interfere with.

> ensuring that the powerful can't rewrite history

That overstates IA's influence. People still think Elon started Tesla.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#129

Post by [deleted] »

misnome wrote: post #58
Xelynega wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're not in court for the emergency library. They're in court for the 1-1 CDL lending they did. I'm tired of seeing this "well IA shouldn't have done the emergency library" line. Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I think this would have happened eventually, so pointing to the emergency library does nothing but tell everyone that you were right all along. The…

> Do you honestly believe the only reason publishers went after IA is the emergency library? I mean, they did so right after IA did it, specifically citing IA doing it as why. Maybe they would have come after it eventually anyway but the Emergency Library specifically marked IA as an organisation that couldn't be trusted; even if they would have come after CDL, IA didn't have to hand them a slam-dunk case. In all the…

[deleted]

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#130

Post by emmp »

I think leadership at Internet Archive was deeply irresponsible for deciding a short term stunt was worth potentially existentially threatening legal exposure.

The entire leadership there and anyone who signed off on the decision should be replaced. I am a donor but I'm pissed. They should have known better.

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