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Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

kentnguyen.com

121–130 of 135 posts

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#121
This problem not only isn't unique to iOS dev work, it's not even unique to programming. Any custom work, from carpentry to bespoke tailoring to artwork, is more expensive than most people expect, even when they account for custom work being expensive. For instance, I knit, and have been asked more than once if I'd accept a commission (for, say, a pair of socks)---and when I decline, and say they couldn't afford it, they almost invariably throw out a number like $60 or $80, very expensive for a pair of socks but a small fraction of minimum wage for something that could take thirty hours or more.

The problem is that so much of what we buy is mass-produced that we forget just how expensive person-time is, especially creative person-time, since for most modern products this gets amortised over hundreds or thousands or millions of units. Even user-facing software has this issue, since the programmers do their work once and then the marginal cost of each additional copy is pennies or less. But custom work? There the cost is borne entirely by the one commissioning the work, and if it's an individual, or a small business or startup that has never had to purchase enterprise or custom software, they simply have no analogous experience, with software or anything else, of bearing the entire cost of everything.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#122
post #8

ios is a lot of work, programming in general is a lot of work. It is 2012 not 1992, business people in all fields should know programming is not cheap. Business people who do not do the research, don't bother with them. Avoid them at all cost. I've learn the best clients are the ones who value your work and are willing to pay for it. Their is a shortage of great programmers.

> It is 2012 not 1992 On the other hand, think of what you could accomplish with a weekend of work in 1992 and compare that to 2012. Our abilities as developers/designers/etc are vastly improved due to improved infrastructure, tools, communications, resources, etc. You could build a distributed photo hosting and viewing application back in 1992. But you'd probably be writing it in C++ and it might take you a long tim…

nntp://alt.pics.pets

There is 1992's distributed photo sharing app, built in ~5 minutes without any c++ and you had the whole rest of the weekend to get into flame wars about how ugly someone's cat was.

Sure you can get a lot more done now with advanced tools and infrastructure, but really expectations and requirements have grown much faster. You could definitely launch a median web or win32 app in '94 faster than you can now.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, kids who don't know how to value their time who'll work like slaves for $2,000. That's not always the case - if you manage to work $2000 /8h/day/month in my country , you're already being paid in the top .. 10% programmers. Money has a different value based on location.

> Money has a different value based on location. I have a hard time understanding the mentality behind statements like that. While currency may have different values based on location, time, effort, knowledge, experience shouldn't be so different in value. Don't you agree? I don't want to single out any countries, but just as an example, let's say American developers typically charge ~US$100 per hour, why would India…

I'm from India (currently in NYC though) and if you ask me - the USD 15 (say) buys the same bread in India as USD 100 (say). Hence the USD 100 in the US and USD 15 in India.

Cost of education is less in India (and so is the quality if you ask me, but that's not the point and I'm not inclined to discuss this in detail right now). Good developers in India do exist and tend to have learned things from costlier sources BUT have not paid the cost to use them (read piracy).

So in summary, in India the over cost of things was low to begin with and less money (in USD terms) can buy more. So it's a combination of PPP conversion of money and lower cost (even if purchasing power is taken into consideration) of attaining similar skills. What also drives down rates in India is more competition (high population density) - esp. from the spagetti-coder market that operates alongside the quality coder market.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Second, kids who don't know how to value their time who'll work like slaves for $2,000. That's not always the case - if you manage to work $2000 /8h/day/month in my country , you're already being paid in the top .. 10% programmers. Money has a different value based on location.

> Money has a different value based on location. I have a hard time understanding the mentality behind statements like that. While currency may have different values based on location, time, effort, knowledge, experience shouldn't be so different in value. Don't you agree? I don't want to single out any countries, but just as an example, let's say American developers typically charge ~US$100 per hour, why would India…

You can live like a king in India for a few thousand dollars a month. In San Francisco, you'll be lucky to pay your rent. As a result, those developers in India are happy to ask for less if that results in them getting the work since $2K/month in India buys them the same (or better) lifestyle as $2K/week in San Francisco.

Besides which, they're competing against all the other workers in their country. If someone charges $50/hour and gets a lot of work for a similar skill set as you, wouldn't you try charging $45/hour to get the business? If the supply of workers is high and the demand for those workers is low, it does become a race to the bottom. Additionally, they must charge less than their American counterparts because of the inconvenience of being in a timezone where the start of the day in India comes after the end of the day in the US, the language/culture barrier, legal considerations (if someone rips you off, you have better legal options available if they're not half a world away with a foreign court system), and so on.

I'm sure if they could still get the work and charge more they would. However, consider an American-based company wanting development work done. If they have a choice between a $100/hour American worker and a $100/hour Indian worker, odds are very good the American will get the work for all the above reasons.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#125
post #43

This is a message on NY Tech meetup mailing list, from about a half hour ago. All I could do is shake my head. _____________ I am seeking a telephony app. builder that can deliver a PhoneGap lie ( non-native) inexpensive app. for a telephony project. pay is: $350 + 1% equity stake in a newly formed Delaware Corp. and 2.5% on all residuals. possible board seat (future paid projects) if you can deliver an additional in…

At least he is willing to pay some kind of fixed fee. I just got out of a meeting where the client was offering that I do the app for free in exchange of 20% of in-app purchases profit.

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#127

I agree with the overall sentiment of the page. A few questions to seasoned iOS devs: "With websites, you can simply add one more page, then create a link to that page when you needed. However, you can’t do that with iOS app, everything has to be set in the beginning, any changes might result in significant other changes that you might not be able to understand why." Isn't this what the Navigation Controller is for?…

FWIW, the iOS5 based Storyboard has been helpful to get around some of the issues you mentioned; we just finished an app, granted with a very limited number of screens, but Storyboard was a time save for sure. Details, here: http://blog.fieldforceapp.com/weekend-project-ios5-storyboar...

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#128
Good article, but I had a funny thought -- you just knew it was going to play-up the difficulty, maybe like Scotty from Star Trek.

-----

“Go,” they answered, “for the Lord will give it into the king’s hand.”

7 But Jehoshaphat asked, “Is there no longer a prophet of the LORD here whom we can inquire of?”

8 The king of Israel answered Jehoshaphat, “There is still one prophet through whom we can inquire of the LORD, but I hate him because he never prophesies anything good about me, but always bad. He is Micaiah son of Imlah.”

-----

God says... C:\LoseThos\www.losethos.com\text\BIBLE.TXT

ervant.

17:19 O LORD, for thy servant's sake, and according to thine own heart, hast thou done all this greatness, in making known all these great things.

17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

17:21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people whom

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#129
post #16

This is a general problem with custom software, not just iOS apps. Most businesses outside major corporations didn't start commissioning custom software until the rise of the commercial use of the internet in the late '90s, when all kinds of small and medium sized businesses wanted their own website. Websites were relatively simple back then, and the people willing and able to make them cheap. Hell, even though I was…

I think it can be generalized even further. It's not only software, but general IT-related services. There is some mental bias that assumes servicing virtual goods is some combination of easy, straight-forward, or without costs. Even friends and family of mine will still ask me, "can you come over and fix our computer?" It sounds like a simple request -- partially driven be a general phobia of trying things out thems…

What would they say if you asked them to fix your lawnmower? Would that fly?

Re: Dear business people, an iOS app actually takes a lot of work

#130

Most enterprise projects don't want to pay for usability. That's the bottom hard cold fact. Enterprises want to move fast, if they can, but they can't because of the mistakes they've done in the past were covered with more processes to make sure that 1) it didn't happen again and 2) if it happened, we can blame the process. Sometime engineers don't understand 2 facts: 1) You will get fired if you made mistakes 2) You…

> Database issue. You just go there and change the data I have heard stories of how very large financial institutions never ever delete a database column from a table, they just keep adding columns. They will not delete a data column for the very real fear that mission critical applications will stop working properly or fail silently.

Which is a very wise policy. It's not like deleting apparently unused code that you can get back from version control if you turn out to be wrong. The cost of carrying a hundred unused columns around forever is negligible compared to the cost of deleting one that turned out to be still used.
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