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YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

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Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#121

This is clearly an egregious case of design theft, particularly considering the fact that they're actually linking to assets off the Highrise site. But at the risk of opening myself up to an absolute shit hurricane, I'm curious where my site would fall on the Highrise design theft scale: http://www.powerplayforsalesforce.com . Personally I think it's fine, but it's also obvious that I read 37signals' post a while bac…

Looks like you photoshopped your face onto someone else's body.

You're half right. Although this will make me sound like an absolute narcissist, I needed a haircut when I took the pic, so I photoshopped my twitter pic onto my own body rather than get a haircut and retake a bunch of pictures.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#122
post #60

This incident strikes me as a glaring example of how broken web design is. A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool, and then publish to a web platform that support it.... than copying the source and then editing it in a text editor. I know in the past such WYSIWYG tools were too rigid and thus we have a generation of designers that work in text.... but it just s…

I think Adobe is working on something like this. Though Dreamweaver leaves much to be desired, I think what their working on is something completely different. Plus, the announcement that they're committed to HTML5 is more or less a hint of this. My guess is that it's something like Adobe Flash Builder, but instead of Flash, it outputs HTML5.

Are you talking about Adobe Edge? http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/edge/

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An honest question (and thank you for not using the term stealing!=)), but you listed 4 reasons. Just curious about where it crosses the line for you. If someone does A, is it still a grey area? Is it because of B? C? D? Personally, I see it as A. B, C, and D merely exasperate the situation, but without A, B, C, and D aren't an issue. Of course, the follow up is if it's because of B, C, and D that it isn't in a grey…

You don't think hotlinking images and CSS is stealing bandwidth?

I'm sure all those 300-byte images have the 37signals servers at melting point.

I don't think this is the horse you want to ride.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#124

Please do not conflate stealing with copying. When something is stolen, the original owner no longer has posession of the stolen object. If the story were about money or physical property, "stealing" would be appropriate. It is not. The word "copying" is quite adequate. In this case, direct copying is obviously poor behaviour. It betrays a lack of capability on the part of the copyer. This story would have had the sa…

You are confusing everyday English with court pleadings. Here are some illustrative examples to show the difference.

1. You come home from work, and find that while you were gone someone came into your garage and stole your motorcycle.

It would be quite normal to exclaim "I've been robbed!". Yet you in fact have been burgled, not robbed. Nevertheless in common English usage people use "robbed" in a more expansive sense than it is use in law. If writing a police report, or an indictment, one must make the distinction, but not in regular conversation.

2. You are in a bar, in a tuxedo, obviously trying to drink yourself into oblivion. I ask you what is wrong. You tell me "my best friend stole my fiancé...on our wedding day!".

Technically, he did not steal her, as she is not property. He perhaps committed tortious interference with contract, or maybe alienation of affection. However, if you are not writing the pleadings for a lawsuit, it is in fact perfectly acceptable to say the bastard stole your fiancé.

3. You are the quarterback for your high school football team. The big game is coming up with your most hated rival high school. Your sister starts dating the quarterback of their time. While he is at your house visiting your system, he sneaks into your room, where you have your team's confidential playbook. He quickly uses his cell phone camera to take photos of each page.

This would generally be described as him stealing your plays, even though it is not legally stealing (and probably isn't even legally a crime).

The use of terms like stealing, theft, robbery, and so on to describe situations where they do not literally apply in the legal sense goes back a long way. E.g., from Shakespeare: "Who steals my purse, steals trash, but he that filches from me my good name robs me of that which not enriches him and makes me poor indeed." Note that he is using both filching (a synonym for stealing) and robbery to describe damaging a reputation.

Copyright law's mechanism is to create a property interest in the right to make and distribute copies of a given work. Exercising someone else's property interests without there permission is acceptably called "theft" in ordinary English.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#125

A lot of people here are only referring to them ripping off 37signals' design. They ripped more than that. http://yfrog.com/oejp7cp Curebit vs. Kinoma Sharebooster's logo is stolen directly from LaunchBit: http://yfrog.com/odx67yoj No one can defend the theft of a logo.

To be fair, perhaps both of those companies used purchased themes or artwork from something like themeforest as a starting point. But this definitely looks bad, particularly in light of the 37signals dustup. EDIT: Looks that way for the rocket ship at least: http://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-5418738/stock-vector-retr...

Hey -- yeah, I'm one of the co-founders of LaunchBit, and it's true that on a startup budget, we bought the image from iStockphoto.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#126
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are (a) copying other people's work, (b) passing it off as their own, (c) doing so for profit, and (d) unable to see why this is wrong. This isn't a gray area at all.

An honest question (and thank you for not using the term stealing!=)), but you listed 4 reasons. Just curious about where it crosses the line for you. If someone does A, is it still a grey area? Is it because of B? C? D? Personally, I see it as A. B, C, and D merely exasperate the situation, but without A, B, C, and D aren't an issue. Of course, the follow up is if it's because of B, C, and D that it isn't in a grey…

It's only vague inasfar as the words themselves are vague.

"COPYING" is abused. RIAA and other organizations have really tried to grossly expand the definition and that has tainted the discussion. For the next paragraph, "COPYING" means literally using the same assets (or a digital replication).

The line is drawn at "literally copying assets". Putting up your own assets that are inspired by another site isn't copying. Putting up another company's assets (or downloading and self-hosting other company assets) crosses the line.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that line is subjective, though one could argue linking to assets from someone else's servers is akin to theft (stealing bandwidth and money). But I think the bigger story here is how Curebit handled their reaction to DHH. This could have all been avoided if Allan replied with a more humble stance. Personally, I think DHH's initial reaction was on the strong side. If Allan had realized that, he wouldn't have…

When you are clearly in the wrong, a pissing match will never end well for you. Apologize sincerely, fix it, maybe offer some form of remediation, and let it blow over. You will never be able to make yourself look better if you try to make excuses or attack the grieved party.

agreed. sage advice.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#128
post #60

This incident strikes me as a glaring example of how broken web design is. A simple page like that should be easier and faster to create from scratch using a WYSIWYG tool, and then publish to a web platform that support it.... than copying the source and then editing it in a text editor. I know in the past such WYSIWYG tools were too rigid and thus we have a generation of designers that work in text.... but it just s…

I think Adobe is working on something like this. Though Dreamweaver leaves much to be desired, I think what their working on is something completely different. Plus, the announcement that they're committed to HTML5 is more or less a hint of this. My guess is that it's something like Adobe Flash Builder, but instead of Flash, it outputs HTML5.

I've tried Adobe Edge and the biggest issue I found was with the amount of HTML output and the human readability/context of elements. There seemed to be a lot of wrapper elements used in succession and named long, generic names with numbers. In my brief trial it looked OK in the browser but due to the excessive HTML, it would be a huge burden to edit in anything other than Adobe Edge if you wanted to go back and change anything. In a text editor, I can create a page using only 20% of the elements Edge did and have the opportunity to name them something relevant (e.g. #author_info rather than #generic-1-3-15).

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#129

I thought we'd already concluded that copyright infringement is not stealing. Neither is linking. Fair use is fine. And that ideas can't be stolen. So, is Curebit wrong because 37Signals is one of us? I'm not suggesting what Curebit did is right. But I doubt any HN user of any length of time can ignore the similarities with other copyright cases where the community here is opposed to the "37Signals" side. I'll have t…

Who concluded that copyright infringement is not stealing?

Opposition to SOPA etc does not necessarily mean people don't believe in copyright. There is a very broad range of views on that particular question.

Re: YC and 500 Startups company Curebit caught stealing from 37 Signals

#130

I thought we'd already concluded that copyright infringement is not stealing. Neither is linking. Fair use is fine. And that ideas can't be stolen. So, is Curebit wrong because 37Signals is one of us? I'm not suggesting what Curebit did is right. But I doubt any HN user of any length of time can ignore the similarities with other copyright cases where the community here is opposed to the "37Signals" side. I'll have t…

Let's be rational.

Lets say that it is instantaneous and free to copy 37Signal's design, whereas to recreate it from scratch it costs the labor of a designer X units of dollar-time.

For the sake of simplicity lets say that Curebit and 37Signals are competing for customers in a zero sum game.

True, by copying 37Signals, Curebit has taken away some unknown X dollar-time worth of customers away from 37Signals during that 1 hour.

However, even though the customer space of 37Signal's and Curebit's enterprise may be zero-sum, the dollar-time measure of work is non-negative (and not zero-sum). It would make more sense for the industry as a whole to allow the copying of design, because overall it saves on design work time.

What Curebit did appears to be wrong because it appears as though they are outright cheating. However, if you understand that designers gain their chops by reverse-engineering the productions of others, and that this happens routinely in the real world, perhaps it's time to accept copying as a legitimate part of the equation.

In this case, 37Signals was given free rein to track Curebit's customers. Sounds like a good deal to me.

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