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Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

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Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#121

Post by mrguyorama »

my_usernam3 wrote: post #23
PurpleRamen wrote: post #6

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

I think I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate, the video game industry is struggling to monetize their work. No one wants to pay for games anymore, no one wants a pay to win system in a game, and cosmetic items seem like a waste of money to most. The result is the gaming industry pulling out all the tricks to try to separate the consume from his or her wallet to pay for content.

It had no problem monetizing their work BEFORE the microtransaction hellscape we have now, which has made these companies insanely profitable.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#122

Post by malcolmgreaves »

tagyro wrote: post #84

My comment is going to get downvoted (or worse, ignored), but here I go again: We, as software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Everyday we read about organisations using dark patterns in their (software) products and then we come to HN to complain about it. How did these features get built? By whom? Yes, I realise not everyone has…

unions

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#123

Post by Thaxll »

flangola7 wrote: post #88
Thaxll wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most use case are not hacks aren't they? If you charge back because not happy for example? Every time you charge back Steam or Epic has to pay $10 or so to the bank if I recall.

There are other reasons to use a chargeback than just fraud.

Which is?

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#124

Post by raph43l »

paulmd wrote: post #25
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

Came here to say this too. This just needs to be the rule generally. Steam and Amazon do the same thing - get hacked and get charged for some items, if you dispute the Steam charge you lose your $5000 account, that's not a fair playing field and effectively negates the protection offered by credit card networks. Hopefully steam resolves it, that's always the first line of defense, but if they don't, you still can't c…

[dead]

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#125

Post by tagyro »

nitwit005 wrote: post #107
tagyro wrote: post #84

My comment is going to get downvoted (or worse, ignored), but here I go again: We, as software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Everyday we read about organisations using dark patterns in their (software) products and then we come to HN to complain about it. How did these features get built? By whom? Yes, I realise not everyone has…

You seem to have started with the premise that getting management to behave ethically is hopeless, but that maybe engineers could refuse. Management can always find someone willing to behave un-ethically if they look. Regulation and criminal liability tends to be the only way to eliminate shady business practices.

I was "management" in an infamous bank.

When I realised that I had a choice, I resigned.

Again, I do realise that I'm privileged and not everyone can afford to simply resign, but a lot of us can and we, the ones who can, have no excuse.

We are the "new" crack dealers

2Pac - Changes

    You gotta operate the easy way

    - I made a G today

    but you made it in a sleazy way

    Sellin' crack to the kids

    - I gotta get paid

    Well hey, well, that's the way it is

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#126

Post by tagyro »

YeahNO wrote: post #113
rootusrootus wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of us do push back on the product owners and designers when something seems obviously bad. But I don't think it's good advice to encourage people to unilaterally declare themselves the gatekeeper just because they write the code.

Articulating why a certain function is bad design or is actively harmful is not the same as gatekeeping. I have lost opportunities because I chose to follow my ethics over my bank account. I do not regret those decisions. Software developers should have a professional code of ethics. Other professions have them, why not computer scientists, computer engineers, and software developers? There is the ACM/IEEE-CS Softwar…

When I studied (industrial) engineering, we had a creed and naïve me still believes in that.

https://order-of-the-engineer.org/about-the-order/obligation...

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#127

Post by jjulius »

vuln wrote: post #45
paulmd wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came here to say this too. This just needs to be the rule generally. Steam and Amazon do the same thing - get hacked and get charged for some items, if you dispute the Steam charge you lose your $5000 account, that's not a fair playing field and effectively negates the protection offered by credit card networks. Hopefully steam resolves it, that's always the first line of defense, but if they don't, you still can't c…

You purchased _access_ to the media for as long as the company decides to host it. You don't physically own the media. Think of it as renting or a lease.

We shouldn't think of it as renting or a lease, companies should call it renting or leasing. Otherwise, they're pissing on my leg and telling me that it's raining.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#129

Post by MagicMoonlight »

vuln wrote: post #48
ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to see this formalized as a rule/right. I essentially can't file a chargeback against Amazon or Steam, ever, because of the likely repercussions to the rest of my libraries there.

> my libraries You may have curated but you do not own your library. You purchased _access_ to said library.

“You purchased access to your house, you do not own it. Move along citizen.”

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#130

Post by Eduard »

grog454 wrote: post #100
tagyro wrote: post #84

My comment is going to get downvoted (or worse, ignored), but here I go again: We, as software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Everyday we read about organisations using dark patterns in their (software) products and then we come to HN to complain about it. How did these features get built? By whom? Yes, I realise not everyone has…

> software engineers (or working in the field), have the power to not implement these features when our employer asks us to do it. Realize that you're statment is a euphemism. What you really mean is we have the choice between implementing a dark pattern or finding another job and letting someone else implement it. Stated this way it's a lot easier to understand people's behavior.

> What you really mean is we have the choice between implementing a dark pattern or finding another job and letting someone else implement it.

You incorrectly reduced the available options.

Here are a couple more options:

- convince your peers and supervisors why using dark patterns is trash

- just don't implement dark patterns and rather focus on useful features and bugfixes

- be loud about your distain of such request for dark pattern implementation and tweet, blog, write about it.

- ...

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